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2018 G1 Caulfield Cup 2400m
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JudgeHolden View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Three of those horses you listed Judge were either Group winners or listed winners in the U.K. fwiw, their entitled to maintain.


Which of course further demonstrates that it’s our horses, not our trainers.

Just on imports, I note Weir has choppered in the new Oaks favourite. Could this be the next thing, importing 3yos? Rich pickings in our farcical 3yo staying events, I would have thought.

Unfortunately for connections, won’t be eligible for the Magic Millions Staying Classic.
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People are missing one of the worst rides of all time.
Damien Oliver on Ace High.

It was a classic case of a Trainer not communicating enough to a jockey, and a jockey not knowing the horse.

Ace High, a lazy a## trackworker, totally pinged out of the gates and got a good half a length to one length in front in the first 50m.
Ace High was READY.
Ready to run.

Then Oliver switched him off, by going sooo bloody slow.
The good ole "stack em and rack em", is meant to be great, but not this time.
If you switch off Ace High, he thinks its just another bloody morning track gallop.

Ace High didnt want to know the race after the first turn.

You watch the AJC Derby this year.
He has to run at a TRUE gallop, then he gives and gives and gives.
The final 200m in the AJC Derby, he streeted the field with Lavendi, and Ace High could have done another lap at top speed.

Equally, the VRC Derby, it was a true gallop, and he ran 3 to 4 wide the final 800m, then he gave and gave and gave and killed the field.

Oliver just did the standard thing "rating" his mount, stacking the whole field up, which is what you want a leader to do normally, but it was a classic case of a jockey not truly knowing the horse.
Ace High was ready for the race bigtime, pinged out of gates, then was told to shutdown by Oliver.
Nup

What you got out of Ace High yesterday, was a lazy track gallop, and it wasnt his fault.
It was a MAJOR FORGIVE run.

Was one of the worst rides of the modern era.
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Re Ace High - he was in a mood in the tie ups.
Got worked up being surrounded by fillies, was a muck lather of sweat, calling out and trying to show off.
He had already ran his race before he even got to the mounting yard.
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I know people have said it but it's amazing reading all the jockeys complaining about the slow pace. Fair enough if you're stuck in traffic or on a backmarker but I'm guessing I'll see a lot of dumb rides when I watch replays properly. One thing I wanted, and was worried wouldn't happen, was for Best Solution to be able to get to the front of the pack because I'd seen how tough he is to pass and I thought it would be hard for anything to run on from the back, and I couldn't believe how "easy" it was for Cosgrave to loop the field and slot into an ideal spot after a bad start!

On the other hand, I don't know if Purton was riding to instructions (surely not, on a horse that races just off the pace?) but I was also hoping for Red V to use some early initiative to get up on near the lead because I thought he would also make an early break for home like Best Solution did, but instead Purton hooks him straight to the inside at the back and then complains that the horse was over racing and was left behind! Red V was actually a brave run when you watch it again.
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Red V was poleaxed in the straight. Should have finished much closer
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Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

I think you have me all wrong djebel.

The blame for the current state of events is the owners who want a quick return, and the trainers who placate their usually non existent knowledge of breeding, and force the trainer to train gallopers who could develop into middle distance and staying types with time and maturity.

The laying of blame, at the breeders, is that they are then promoting and kow towing to the owners, by pushing the better bred broodmares onto sires who are low in stamina, and prone to sprinting.

We have had two high quality Melbourne cup winners become sires in the last 10 years, Shocking, and Americain, and I could count on one hand, the number of well suited quality mares sent to these two sires, to support them.

This is where Sir Tristram, has been much more than a leading NZ sire. His influence over the last thirty years has created, a single source of, high quality stamina.

We have seen in the recent past that when a quality stamina influence is given even half decent breeding partners that we can get some quality. Helenus and Blackfriars in the west have shown us that.

So just to recap, the owners want trainers to get them a quick return, trainers comply with the owners, and points the breeders into a certain direction, which they then follow.

The full circle!



Sydney started this with their 2yo dementia. Queensland piled in. 

Embarrassing for Darley Australia that not only are o/s Godolphin horse far superior to theirs, but Cumming's best horses (Avilius, Osborne Bulls, Home of the Brave, Best of Days etc) are all imports.

Though Ranier did manage to fall in in a listed 1400m race today...


There’s been a race called the Blue Diamond that’s been around for nearly 50 years.

It’s a bit rich to lump it all onto Sydney and Qld
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Bloody Melbourne racing

They’ve stuffed Australian Racing. The Maribyrnong Plates been going since 1871
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The connection between huge prize money for juveniles and the declining standard of our older horses seems pretty clear to me.
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Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

Stayer
Red V was poleaxed in the straight. Should have finished much closer

Yeah but still too far back to begin with IMO. Was never comfortable from the couple of replays I watched so a pretty tough effort. Not sure re the MC though. This was probably his best chance.
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Originally posted by stayer stayer wrote:

Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

Stayer
Red V was poleaxed in the straight. Should have finished much closer

Yeah but still too far back to begin with IMO. Was never comfortable from the couple of replays I watched so a pretty tough effort. Not sure re the MC though. This was probably his best chance.


Yes, if he’s settled in you’d think Magic Circle has RV covered on his last run
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I was just pulling up in the drive when the race was on, so I didn’t see it live. Had no idea they’d gone that slow- Matt Hill made no mention of it, in fact he called it a “stamina sapper” . But watching the replay it’s clear how many horses weren’t happy with the tempo.

Inconclusive from a Cups perspective, still like Yucatan.
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So who was expected to put the pace on and didn't?
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

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Yeah good question - it was looking like Homesman, Ace High, Taj, Jon Snow (WTF was that ride), Best Solution if possible, the Japanese horses and maybe Duretto would go forward, and that's pretty much what happened in the end, but they mucked around a bit and slowed it down. I thought Purton would have seen that Red V would have an opportunity to get right up there and go for home early. I suppose the best chances of putting any real pace on were the Japanese horses and a Williams bunny. It was always looking like it would be hard for backmarkers IMO.
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Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Three of those horses you listed Judge were either Group winners or listed winners in the U.K. fwiw, their entitled to maintain.
Carioca, you're like me and go back a long way. What do you think of Wayne Hawkes's suggestion that what we lack in Australian racing is not heaps of 4 and 5 year old stallions running around but good talented geldings. We need more Buffering, Happy Clapper types. He said that the major effect of 2 year old racing is modern owners reluctance to geld their talented but hormone driven nutcase of a colt . The youngsters only have to be held together for one maybe two preparations , win their 2 year old Group One and get the big stud deal. Quite often if it doesn't work out the gelding comes to late and the horse is ruined as a racehorse. I know it's Wayne Hawkes ( idiot) but I think he has a point. I wonder if Kingston Town and Manikato would be gelded if they were around today?


It is in a trainers best interest to geld.

The Japanese built the Japan Cup to see where they stood. They learnt and implemented changes and now they are world class.

Japan have 7 8 and 9 year old stallions running around. They rarely geld.
reductio ad absurdum
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Its not in any modern trainers best interest to geld. Their job is to make a stallion and you can bet that there are financial deals done when the stud deal comes through. And the difference between us and Japan, if you're talking 2400 metre plus horses, is they wanted to improve and we don't. It's not the breeders or the trainers fault, it's the owners who don't want stayers. They want sprinter/milers.
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Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Three of those horses you listed Judge were either Group winners or listed winners in the U.K. fwiw, their entitled to maintain.
Carioca, you're like me and go back a long way. What do you think of Wayne Hawkes's suggestion that what we lack in Australian racing is not heaps of 4 and 5 year old stallions running around but good talented geldings. We need more Buffering, Happy Clapper types. He said that the major effect of 2 year old racing is modern owners reluctance to geld their talented but hormone driven nutcase of a colt . The youngsters only have to be held together for one maybe two preparations , win their 2 year old Group One and get the big stud deal. Quite often if it doesn't work out the gelding comes to late and the horse is ruined as a racehorse. I know it's Wayne Hawkes ( idiot) but I think he has a point. I wonder if Kingston Town and Manikato would be gelded if they were around today?

My thoughts are with how the prize money has been skewered towards 2 and 3y/os that a lot of owners and trainers are reluctant to cut ( with trainers now getting a percentage of sale to a stud) and owners living the Dream of another Fastnet R. Pierro or TAS and huge money involved in syndication, the idea to educate and geld has all but gone sadly as has the beneficial good spell to let the bone and knees take up, I've said before the best two vets are "Father Time and Doctor Green"but when we have short course horses going to stud patience disappears and money takes over , I'm all for gelding Manikato would not have stood up to the preps he had imo and who could possibly argue with TJ after the career of Kingston Town , there are two things I will add , when young us kids went to Inglis sales late 50s and nearly all TJs buys were gelded there and then, when in Melbourne I walked into a stable to start work , a vet was there having a hard time with a horse, so over I go and after a minute he looked me in the eye swet rolling down his face he said to me " I'd love to come here tomorrow with a scalpel and fill that dunpit up with balls , laughed my head off but he was Right imo.
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Yucatan 4 starts as a 2yo still intact.

Best Solution 6 starts as a 2yo still intact.

Best Solution by Kodiac. Kodiac is the equivalent to Rorys Jester.
reductio ad absurdum
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Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

The connection between huge prize money for juveniles and the declining standard of our older horses seems pretty clear to me.
The problems are much deeper than that, the availability and subsequent reliance on international stayers has completely bastardized the Derby and Oaks. We're not seeing the progression that was routine when we were more of a closed shop. Why would you want to breed a stayer when even if you happen to get lucky and end up with the best stayer in your age group you'll be exposed to a stronger pool of horse at four.
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Controversial opinion here.
The best way to focus our industry towards breeding and producing stayers once again is to ban international runners from handicaps.
That's the only way it's going to happen.
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Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Controversial opinion here.
The best way to focus our industry towards breeding and producing stayers once again is to ban international runners from handicaps.
That's the only way it's going to happen.


Not sure how that will improve the trainers ability to produce and develop them ?

It is not breeding that is the problem.

FIFTY STARS !!!!!
reductio ad absurdum
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Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Controversial opinion here.
The best way to focus our industry towards breeding and producing stayers once again is to ban international runners from handicaps.
That's the only way it's going to happen.


Not sure how that will improve the trainers ability to produce and develop them ?

It is not breeding that is the problem.

FIFTY STARS !!!!!

They'll be held accountable for lack of ability to produce stayers to start with and won't be able to boost their ranks. It will definitely improve their patience, you need to rush stayers with potential to have them peaking for the 3 year old classics because of what's waiting for them outside their age group.

The cream will rise to the top and they'll be a profile for how a stayer is developed. If some trainers use less orthodox methods and have success I'd expect that to be replicated. Whatever works will win out.
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Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Controversial opinion here.
The best way to focus our industry towards breeding and producing stayers once again is to ban international runners from handicaps.
That's the only way it's going to happen.


Not sure how that will improve the trainers ability to produce and develop them ?

It is not breeding that is the problem.

FIFTY STARS !!!!!

We have lots of experienced Europeans out here, some head trainers and more stable foreman.
Why do they forget how to train when they step foot in Australia?
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Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Controversial opinion here.
The best way to focus our industry towards breeding and producing stayers once again is to ban international runners from handicaps.
That's the only way it's going to happen.


Not sure how that will improve the trainers ability to produce and develop them ?

It is not breeding that is the problem.

FIFTY STARS !!!!!

We have lots of experienced Europeans out here, some head trainers and more stable foreman.
Why do they forget how to train when they step foot in Australia?


That is a good question.

I suspect they were not or would not cut the mustard up there.

Matt Cumani is an interesting one.
reductio ad absurdum
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Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Yucatan 4 starts as a 2yo still intact.

Best Solution 6 starts as a 2yo still intact.

Best Solution by Kodiac. Kodiac is the equivalent to Rorys Jester.

So what if those two are entires, there would be heaps going over the jumps that wouldn't enjoy that status, as for Kodiac Delville Wood sired Melbourne cup winner , Derby winners Oaks winners and and an Oakleigh Plate winner , there are times when breeding is not all what it seems imo.
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Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Controversial opinion here.
The best way to focus our industry towards breeding and producing stayers once again is to ban international runners from handicaps.
That's the only way it's going to happen.


Do t Agee with that Sheck.
The likes of Fiorante and Americanain have been well supported at stud
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Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Controversial opinion here.
The best way to focus our industry towards breeding and producing stayers once again is to ban international runners from handicaps.
That's the only way it's going to happen.


Do t Agee with that Sheck.
The likes of Fiorante and Americanain have been well supported at stud


They are not the types to throw top class classic horses and stayers.

I certainly hope they do but they are not the types.

Stradivarius the best stayer on the planet is already being touted as a National Hunt stallion.
reductio ad absurdum
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Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Controversial opinion here.
The best way to focus our industry towards breeding and producing stayers once again is to ban international runners from handicaps.
That's the only way it's going to happen.


Well it worked well for the Trabant
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Best Solution has a Jameka type pedigree, i.e. they clearly intended to breed a sprinter. Smile

I see plenty of horses with sprinter x sprinter pedigrees who win big races at 2400m (they get found out at 3200m) but does it happen the other way round- stayer x stayer pedigree who wins the Golden Slipper or the Lightning Stakes?LOL
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

Simon Cameron
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Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Best Solution has a Jameka type pedigree, i.e. they clearly intended to breed a sprinter. Smile

I see plenty of horses with sprinter x sprinter pedigrees who win big races at 2400m (they get found out at 3200m) but does it happen the other way round- stayer x stayer pedigree who wins the Golden Slipper or the Lightning Stakes?LOL

Pierro, Although Lonhro whilst a miler 2000m horse himself is probably considered a sprinting sire these days. 
reductio ad absurdum
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Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Best Solution has a Jameka type pedigree, i.e. they clearly intended to breed a sprinter. Smile

I see plenty of horses with sprinter x sprinter pedigrees who win big races at 2400m (they get found out at 3200m) but does it happen the other way round- stayer x stayer pedigree who wins the Golden Slipper or the Lightning Stakes?LOL

 

Not exactly


1st DAM

AL ANDALYYA (USA), by Kingmambo. Started 5 times. Half-sister to KOSMISCHE, Gorgeous King, Squire Osbaldeston. Dam of 3 foals, all raced, 1 winner-

BEST SOLUTION (c. by Kodiac). 9 wins - 2 at 2 - 6 f. to 1 1/2 m. and $4,280,594 inc. Baden-Baden Grosser Preis Von Baden [G1], Berlin-Hoppegarten Grosser Preis von Berlin [G1], MRC Stella Artois Caulfield Cup [G1], Newmarket Princess of Wales's S. [G2], Newbury St Simon S. [G3], Lingfield Derby Trial S. . 2d Saint-Cloud Criterium de Saint-Cloud [G1], Munchen Grosser Dallmayr-Preis [G1]. 3d Veliefendi Trakya Trophy.

2nd DAM

Kushnarenkovo, by Sadler's Wells. 1 win at 1 1/2 m. 2d Cork Noblesse S. [G3]. 3d Leopardstown Salsabil S. , Curragh Finale S. . Sister to BRIAN BORU, KITTY O'SHEA. Three-quarter sister to SEA MOON. Half-sister to MOON SEARCH. Dam of 7 foals, all raced, 4 winners inc.-

KOSMISCHE (f. by Fastnet Rock). 2 wins at 1300, 1500 m. at 2 inc. Koln Winterkonigin-Trial .

Gorgeous King (c. by Fastnet Rock). 5 wins 6 f. to 1 1/4 m. and $847,223 inc. Newmarket £200,000 Tattersalls Millions 3YO Trophy, Sha Tin San Antonio H, Eleanor H, Chongqing H. 2d Longchamp Prix Hocquart [G2], Sandown Classic Trial [G3].

Squire Osbaldeston (g. by Mr Greeley). 5 wins 1600 to 2011 m. and $261,083. 3d Kempton Magnolia S. , Newmarket Star Amusements, Southend E B F Maiden Stakes. 4th Singapore El Dorado Classic [Sin-3].

3rd DAM

EVA LUNA, by Alleged. 4 wins 11 1/2 to 14 1/2 f. Doncaster Park Hill S. [G3], York Galtres S. , Leicester Mercury S. , Sandown Maiden S. 2d Doncaster Serlby S. . 3d Sandown Henry II S. [G3], Newbury St Simon S. [G3]. 4th Newmarket Jockey Club Cup [G3]. Sister to Petralona. Half-sister to ROUGEUR (Gulfstream Park Gaily Gaily H. . 2d Maisons-Laffitte Prix Messaline). Dam of 11 foals, 7 raced, 6 winners inc.-

BRIAN BORU (c. by Sadler's Wells). 4 wins - 2 at 2 - 7 to 14 1/2 f. and $1,638,566. Doncaster St Leger [G1], Racing Post Trophy [G1], Leopardstown Alleged S. , Curragh EBF Flemings Garage Maiden. 2d Curragh Irish St Leger [G1], York Great Voltigeur S. [G2], Deauville Prix Kergorlay [G2], Curragh Beresford S. [G3]. 3d Woodbine Pattison Canadian International S. [G1], Pattison Canadian International S. [G1], Leopardstown Derby Trial S. [G2]. 4th Curragh Irish Derby [G1].

SEA MOON (c. by Beat Hollow). 6 wins 1 to 1 1/2 m. and $1,223,222 inc. Ascot Hardwicke S. [G2], York Great Voltigeur S. [G2], MRC Herbert Power S. [G2], Goodwood Tapster S. , York Give Generously To Macmillan S. 2d Churchill Downs Breeders' Cup Turf [G1], Curragh Irish St Leger Trial S. [G3], VRC Bart Cummings H. . 3d Doncaster St Leger S. [G1], Curragh Finale S. .

MOON SEARCH (f. by Rainbow Quest). 5 wins 2000 to 2500 m. and $234,022. Longchamp Prix de Royallieu [G2], Maisons-Laffitte Prix Belle de Nuit , Longchamp Prix de la Pepiniere , Prix de la Conciergerie, Saint-Cloud Prix Negofol. Producer.

KITTY O'SHEA (f. by Sadler's Wells). 2 wins at 1 m. inc. Curragh Park Express S. . Dam of 6 winners inc.-

KISSABLE (f. by Danehill Dancer). 2 wins at 7 f., 1 1/2 m. and $237,011 inc. Saratoga Waya S. . 2d Curragh Finale S. . 3d Curragh Moyglare Stud S. [G1], Saratoga Glens Falls S. [G3], Leopardstown Silver Flash S. [G3]. 4th Woodbine E.P. Taylor S. [G1], Keeneland Bewitch S. [G3], Curragh Park Express S. [G3], Listowel S. . Producer.

Kingdom of Munster (c. by Danehill Dancer). 1 win at 7 1/2 f. at 2. 3d Tipperary El Gran Senor S. . 4th Leopardstown Tyros S. [G3].

Kushnarenkovo (f. by Sadler's Wells). See above.

Soviet Moon. Unraced. Dam of-

WORKFORCE (c. by King's Best). 4 wins 7 f. to 1 1/2 m. and $5,222,752 inc. Epsom Derby S. [G1], Longchamp Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe [G1], Sandown Brigadier Gerard S. [G3]. 2d Ascot King George VI and Queen Elizabeth S. [G1], Sandown Eclipse S. [G1], York Dante S. [G2].
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