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Brutal
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furious View Drop Down
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Also could suggest Lonhro and So You Think might make a great cross to think about.  Should be beautiful animals to boot.
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TJMitchell View Drop Down
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1st DAM

Alberton Princess (NZ), by Golan (IRE). 2 wins at 1400 m. 3d Taranaki 2 YO Classic [G3], AuRC Lindauer Brut Cuvee 1400, Piazza d'Oro Fillies and Mares 1400, Avondale JC Equine Veterinary Services 1200, WRC Stella Artois Maiden. Three-quarter sister-in-blood to LADY ALBERTON. Half-sister to TE AKAU ROSE, Dancing Bridges. Dam of 6 foals, 5 raced, 4 winners-

BRUTAL (c. by O'Reilly (NZ)). 3 wins at 1200, 1400 m. and $213,200. VRC Exford Plate , MVRC Mitchell McKenzie S. , MRC Ladbrokes.Com.Au Handicap. 3d ATC Southern Cross S. [G3].

TALARIA (f. by O'Reilly (NZ)). Won Counties RC Counties Challenge S. Listed (1100 m.) at 2.

BASCULE (g. by Thorn Park). 5 wins 1200 to 1420 m. and $180,375. VRC Primacy Handicap, ATC Testa Rossa @ Vinery Handicap, Cronulla Sharks Handicap, MRC Ladbrokes Infohub Handicap, Le Pine Funerals Handicap.

TIMES LIKE THESE (g. by Thorn Park). 1 win at 1400 m.

2nd DAM

STRAUSSBRIDGE, by Straussbrook. 2 wins at 1000 m. at 2 inc. Counties RC Counties Challenge S. . Half-sister to SIR ALBERTON, ALBERTON STAR. Dam of 9 foals, 8 raced, 6 winners inc.-

TE AKAU ROSE (f. by Thorn Park). 3 wins - 2 at 2 - at 1200 m. inc. Matamata Breeders' S. [G2], CJC Phil Murfitt Orthodontist Rating 75. 2d Taranaki 2 YO Classic [G3], Wanganui JC Trudy Thomson Memorial , CJC Canterbury Belle S. . 3d Gore RC Gore Guineas . Dam of 5 winners inc.-

Shapita (f. by Foxwedge). 2 wins at 1100, 1200 m. WATC Iron Jack Plate, Yellowglen Handicap. 2d WATC Placid Ark S. , D'Orsogna Plate. 4th WATC Burgess Queen S. .

Wassergeist (g. by Fastnet Rock). 2 wins at 1200, 1400 m. inc. MRC Chandler Macleod Plate. 2d MRC Chef's Hat Plate Maiden Plate. 3d MRC Gothic S. .

Alberton Princess (f. by Golan (IRE)). See above.

Dancing Bridges (f. by Danske (NZ)). Won STC 2 YO Fillies Special Conditions H. (1200 m.). 2d AJC Reginald Allen H. . 3d AJC T.L. Baillieu Quality H. . Dam of-

TESTARHYTHM (g. by Testa Rossa). 5 wins 1200 to 1350 m. and $342,250. Gosford RC Takeover Target S. , STC Freeway Hotel Texas Poker H., ATC Perfection Fresh H., Latch-On Education Program H., Hyland Race Colours Handicap. 3d STC Run to the Roses S. [G3].

ALBERTON ROSE. 3 wins at 1200 m. inc. Avondale JC Carol's Tab and Deli's Bar H. 2d AuRC Ashwell Stallions 3YO H. 3d AuRC Pinto H., Carlton Party Hire 3YO H., Lindauer Rose Juvenile H. Dam of 2 winners inc.-

CAVALRY ROSE (f. by Charge Forward). 3 wins - 2 at 2 - at 1200 m. and $437,750. MRC Thoroughbred Club S. [G3], ATC Inglis Classic, Styletread.Com.Au Handicap. 2d ATC Magic Night S. [G2]. 4th MVRC Red Anchor S. [G3], Canberra RC Black Opal S. , ATC Reginald Allen Quality H. .


Note: I deleted the 'L' for listed race wins because they show up as love hearts on here
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Trouble is one is Darley and one is Coolmore so the pool of mares not available to either.
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Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

This just in. Trainer of 102 Group 1's doesn't actually know how to train a horse.

I am sure he is not infallible.

How much say does his children have ?

If the TJ Smith is his autumn target than he/they have got this colt very very wrong.




You're usually a big proponent of pedigrees. Lot of sprinters in his.

In 10 years time, In reality probably about now, Australasian trainers are so poor and are so sprint oriented that nearly every pedigree will look like the horse should be a quarter horse.

This horse is bred to be a miler and races like a miler.

The fact he would probably be a superstar miler obviously indicates speed. Top class racing speed and as I have said on so many occasions our modern day trainers do not seem to be able to decipher top class racing speed required of middle distant and staying types from short course sprinters.

The Autumn Sun is bred to be a 2400m horse, Fifty Stars is bred to be a 2400m horse, Yet in years to come when you/others and Second Chance are reading their Australian relatives pedigrees you will see sprinter miler rather than middle distant because our trainers have made it so.
reductio ad absurdum
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Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

This just in. Trainer of 102 Group 1's doesn't actually know how to train a horse.

I am sure he is not infallible.

How much say does his children have ?

If the TJ Smith is his autumn target than he/they have got this colt very very wrong.




You're usually a big proponent of pedigrees. Lot of sprinters in his.


He's nowhere near TJ Smith level at this stage. I will be surprised if it starts. What price is it?
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

Simon Cameron
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The line is littered with horses who come out and win two year stakes events yet come out and win over 2400m also later in their careers.  Did you know the first time Rekindling went over a distance (only 2000m) he finished last!  THen he was only 16th in the Epsom Derby.  But did that cause a rethink.  This horse can't stay.  No.  The rest is history.

One slight mishap and people give up in Australia.  Well Tommy Smith didn't or Cummings but now there is an outcry if something fails over a trip and that can scare any trainer into backing off.
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I'm not saying he couldn't be a good miler, however I do think it could be a stretch for him to run a strong one.
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Just look at two four year olds which I've followed from the sales out of this Juliet line.  Both by Written Tycoon.  One Calligrapher has three wins 900/1000 to his name he's never been sent out over 1200m.  The other is Mission Tycoon who had two wins in Australia at 1150 and 1400m before his sale to Hong Kong.  Sent out in the Hong Kong Gold Cup 1800m at the weekend he won.  Beating another Australian in Dark Dream (winner of the Queensland Derby).

It's the horse going a trip who is showing the best form.
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Pedigree looks like a middle distance, at least, to me. 2400m no problem.
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

Simon Cameron
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Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Pedigree looks like a middle distance, at least, to me. 2400m no problem.

Brutal? Might need some goggles Tlaz
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He is correct.
reductio ad absurdum
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Where though?
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His pedigree is a hotch-potch of blood, sprint, miler, middle distance, stayer.  

Normally just a matter of seeking which genes come to the fore, however with the Hawkes in charge there's little chance of him being tried over more than a mile.
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Like most of the best Australasian speed this is a middle distance/staying family.  You have heard of Hi Jinx.  This is the branch that produced him.  His dam was an oaks winner.  

Others through this Wood Nymph branch of the Juliet line include So You Think middle distance champion.   Petrava (champion in South Africa a miler), Jallad (equally good in South Africa and sire or grandsire of plenty of both sprinters and middle distance Derby or Oaks winners), Sound Action (Oaks & Rawson S etc), Dance Hit (Oaks placegetter and winner up to 2200m), her daughter Dance with Her a dual stakes winner also placed in the Brisbane Cup), Black Pirahana (miler through and through).  The best go a trip are the others even tried.
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If Brutal wins a 2400m race i'll eat a whole bale of Lucerne
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Probably won't go there but a mile is feasible and much better than restricting him to sprints. Can't say the trainer hasn't had great milers and he has even had some go a trip.  Remember Freemason.
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Don't disagree. I'd be going the mile route with him against his own age
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Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

If Brutal wins a 2400m race i'll eat a whole bale of Lucerne

No-ones saying he would, just that he arguably could on pedigree.  O'Reilly has sired plenty of well performd stayers, whilst Brutal's maternal grandsire Golan is bred to get 2400m.

But agree with you and Furious, 1600m is as far as you'd be looking particularly at this point of time.
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Actually SC I'd like to see him go a trip.  Same with the Written Tycoon colts.  Train them to get a distance. 1600m to 2000m at least.  Think they have it in them.  Despite the speed they show.

We keep saying some horses only come up and win first up etc.  How many of those are looking for further second up etc and don't retain that early speed!
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Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

If Brutal wins a 2400m race i'll eat a whole bale of Lucerne

No-ones saying he would, just that he arguably could on pedigree.  O'Reilly has sired plenty of well performd stayers, whilst Brutal's maternal grandsire Golan is bred to get 2400m.

But agree with you and Furious, 1600m is as far as you'd be looking particularly at this point of time.

That's why I said 2400, was gonna say 2000 but I REALLY don't want to eat a bale LOL
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too dear today!  Keep it for the ones who appreciate it.
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(Second Chance?) ha he is a typical ossie breed that sells easy here!
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Ok I'm slow at the best of times, however don't really understand the last couple of posts.  Stern Smile
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furious was talking the lucerne, arrow flipped it and made it about you
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Thumbs Up
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I can't see any point in looking beyond the second remove of a pedigree. Is there any evidence that 3rd remove and beyond has any influence on anything? Oh, look- she's got her great great grandfather's nose.Handshake
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

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Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

I can't see any point in looking beyond the second remove of a pedigree. Is there any evidence that 3rd remove and beyond has any influence on anything? Oh, look- she's got her great great grandfather's nose.Handshake


Depends on what is back there and how often it appears back there.
reductio ad absurdum
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Colour can press your button at times.
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I do stakes pedigrees every day - part of my job.  One thing I've discovered is that some of the older Australian and New Zealand lines are still producing multiple stakes winners each season.  This is one of the lines which crops up time and time again.  In Australia that is almost impossible to occur.  The numbers of mares sold to non breeders who don't go to stud (or end up at other stud ie Olympic horse producers) is quite high.  Even daughters and grandaughters of famous mares going to non descript stallions with little or no hope of getting anything from the mating. 

 This happens time and time again.  I wrote once about a 3/4 sister of Plucky Liege one of the greatest broodmares in history.  This mare was a daughter of Carbine and won a G1 racing in Australia.  Within a generation the line failed because care wasn't taken and some of the stallion the fillies went to I've never even heard of.

So for these old lines to still be going is a minor miracle.  Many branches have peated out.  Luckily some have been in New Zealand and they seem to forgive failure better than we do.  

But Manto, Eulogy, White and Blue and Juliet are still going strong.  Lady Chester (dam of Chester), Hebrew Maid, Medmenham (dam of Ajax), Miss Kate, Lady Trenton, Bandiera (great grandaughter of Sceptre) and Marchioness (Epsom Oaks winner) are still surviving also and a few others crop up every now and again.  Same with some bloodlines which we consently import - Chelandry and Cinna we get some great horses from those lines new and old.  But on the whole we dump lines after a few years and so they go to non breeders or Asia and so much good blood is lost.  We want the newest and best.  Ie the Eight Carat a few years ago then became the Dancing Show etc.  Eight Carat line is still producing etc.

Some of the ones keeping their names alive (including stallions)

White and Blue - The Inevitable, Savabeel, Pinot, Hellbent, Black Heart Bart, Rebel King, Star Turn, 
Marchioness - Stella Victoria, Aristia
Miss Kate - Princess of Queens,  Anton En Avant
Hebrew Maid - Pohutukawa, Pinzu, Danzero, Star Witness, Rich Enuff
Medmenham - Persuader, Ataraxia
Cinna - Native Soldier, Fiesta, Show a Heart
Manto - Miss Admiration, Manicure, Microphone, Loving Gaby, Written Tycoon, Pure Pride, Menari, Amanaat, I'm a Rippa, Dreamforce, Better Than Ready, Holler

Juliet - Lyre, Fiera Vista, Danawi, Brutal, So You Think, Mission Tycoon, State Prosecutor, Impending, Magic Consol, Epidemic, She Will Reign,

Chelandry - Leonardo da Hinchi, First Affair, I am Invincible, Weather with You, Sugar Bella, Outback Barbie, Mishani Hustler, Merchant Navy, Miracle Man, Long Time Ago, Chix Pic, High Chaparral, Pariah Dissident Americain, Zeditave

Lady Trenton - Holy Blade, Seabrook, Prairie Fire, In Good Time, My Emotion, Malaguerra, Sooboog, Snitzerland

Bandiera - Written By, Pins
Lady Chester - White Moss, Private Dancer, Fox Swift, Dark Dream
Eulogy - War God, Dundeel, Highland Reel, Idaho, Elvstroem, Starspangledbanner

There are others also placing and winning each week but the older families producing stakes winners are not often well breed.  Often they are the pedigrees no one wants but the value is there in them.  Hense She Will Reign for $20K.  They are the lines that deliver and where if your lucky you can find a cheap one.
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My best of the day and all over him.
Sunline...simply supreme
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