Go to Villagebet.com.au for free horse racing tips - Click here now
Forum Home Forum Home > Horse Racing - Public Forums > Racing Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Point Of Consumption Tax
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Thoroughbred Village Home Page. For village news, follow @TBVillage on Twitter. For horseracing tips, follow @Villagebet on Twitter. To contact the Mayor by email: Click Here.


Point Of Consumption Tax

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Sneck View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2013
Location: Payout Queue
Status: Offline
Points: 7555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Point Of Consumption Tax
    Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 7:18pm
It's terrible and I'm strongly against it considering the negative impact it will have in the market. It's bad for all punters, winning and recreational alike.
However, as a winning gambler I'm not exactly given preferential treatment.
Will I see any personal benefit if I relocate to the NT?
Will there be any difference being located in NSW(10%) compared to VIC(8%)?
Back to Top
Atreus View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 7:55pm
It will be time to give betting on the Australian races away once this POC tax comes in.  Taxes and charges on bookies will be so high that they won't be tolerating any winning players.  And if you cannot win there is no point to playing the game

You could move overseas and still bet on Betfair.  But the liquidity on Betfair will take a big hit on the Aussie races with all the Aussie punters subject to the tax.  So even if you moved overseas you would be better off playing other markets like overseas races or sports

The only people winning on Aussie races will Zeljko and Walsh and anyone getting rebates with the TABs betting through the Isle of Man hub.  The POC Tax has been carefully crafted to ensure these guys are not impacted by the tax
Back to Top
Sneck View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2013
Location: Payout Queue
Status: Offline
Points: 7555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 8:13pm
The international bookmaker ban was a terrible blow for Australian punters but the minimum bet laws are hard to pass up for racing centric players. If the markets are rubbish and/or bookmakers employ unethical/fraudulent behavior it's probably better to be in NZ.
Back to Top
Sneck View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2013
Location: Payout Queue
Status: Offline
Points: 7555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by Atreus Atreus wrote:

The only people winning on Aussie races will Zeljko and Walsh and anyone getting rebates with the TABs betting through the Isle of Man hub.  The POC Tax has been carefully crafted to ensure these guys are not impacted by the tax
This really stinks.
Back to Top
Atreus View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 8:44pm
I don't see bookies honouring the minimum bet laws for winning players once this POC Tax comes in.  The taxes and charges are too steep

William Hill used to reduce people's odds on logging in.  I don't think anything was ever done about that.  So that is all you have to do to get round the minimum bet laws
Back to Top
pnclick View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1013
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnclick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by Atreus Atreus wrote:

I don't see bookies honouring the minimum bet laws for winning players once this POC Tax comes in.  The taxes and charges are too steep

William Hill used to reduce people's odds on logging in.  I don't think anything was ever done about that.  So that is all you have to do to get round the minimum bet laws

I used to be one that would have the odds reduced on login. But that stopped when the minimum bet rules came in.
Back to Top
Sneck View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2013
Location: Payout Queue
Status: Offline
Points: 7555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Atreus Atreus wrote:

I don't see bookies honouring the minimum bet laws for winning players once this POC Tax comes in.  The taxes and charges are too steep

William Hill used to reduce people's odds on logging in.  I don't think anything was ever done about that.  So that is all you have to do to get round the minimum bet laws
There are many tricks the corporates can try to employ to avoid minimum limits but I can see the legislation being enforced through NSW because it benefits the agenda.

Ultimately the corporates may be forced raise their market percentage to the point which TAB fixed odds become the market leader.
Back to Top
Atreus View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 9:34pm
pnclick

It never stopped for me with Centrebet/William Hill.  Whenever I logged in the odds changed with the odds on each runner dropping by about 3 rolls of the board
Back to Top
ExceedAndExcel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 16226
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExceedAndExcel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 9:42pm
Surely racing promos will be cactus. No money backs, protest payout etc. Odds boost almost certainly gone. Maybe they could still offer it on multis like they do with sports? Who knows. Doesn’t affect me personally but can feel for those who it does affect.
Back to Top
Atreus View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 9:43pm
Sneck

Time will tell if the minimum bet laws are enforced but I doubt they will be.  Bookies will soon have to pay
1.  Racefields fees
2.  GST
3.  POC Tax
4.  General expenses of running the business (wages, advertising, website etc)
5.  Payouts to overall winning punters

After all these payments are made they still have to pay 30% company tax on whatever is left over

The bookies will be paying way more to racing and government than they make themselves.  The areas of expense that they can trim will be payouts to winning punters by ignoring the minimum bet laws and cutting back on advertising and promotions

Even V'Landys has said that after this POC Tax the bookies won't be able to cop any more charges without going broke.  So I reckon the minimum bet laws won't be enforced and bookies will make some extra cash that way

In any case you would have to have rocks in your head to keep betting with so many charges imposed.  Better off doing something different with your time.  The Golden Age for punting on Aussie races is behind us.  Best to recognise that and move on
Back to Top
Baghdad Bob View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Location: Victoria
Status: Online
Points: 13596
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 9:51pm
Presently I bet only through Betfair on Australian races. 

They deduct 8.4 % from my net winnings on any NSW race, whereas in Vict. ACT,Qld & SA races they deduct 5.04%

If the PoCT is only levied on an operator's/ bookie's profit the ramifications of the PoCT will vary from state to state with my Betfair betting. 

With the PoCT of 10% in NSW that deduction will increase to 9.24% on NSW races

In Vict the PoCT isto be  8%, which will increase that deduction to 5.443% on Vict races

In SA they intend to have a 15% PoCT that will increase that deduction to 5.796%

As far as I know Qld & the ACT have yet to decide on the PoCT .

By those figures alone I will probably no longer bet on NSW races, which of course, is revenue lost to NSW. 

It makes you think do administrators live in the real world.


Back to Top
Baghdad Bob View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Location: Victoria
Status: Online
Points: 13596
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 10:22pm
Apparently Qld , ACT are going to copy SA and introduce a 15% PoCT.
Back to Top
Atreus View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 12:28am
Baghdad Bob

The South Australian 15% POC Tax has already been in place for months.  Betfair's response to it was to have South Australian punters all pay the base commission rate in each market.  So no deductions to your commission rate for turnover

South Australian players were paying 6% in South Australia, 6% in Victoria and 10% in NSW regardless of their turnover

Maybe with Victoria only charging 8% POC tax instead of 15% Betfair will allow a portion of commission points earned to reduce the base rate of commission if you live in Victoria.  Your estimated commission rates look close to the mark
Back to Top
maccamax View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 41473
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 12:31am
W.A have 15% in operation .    The worry was NSW were to be taxing turnover rather than profits .    That would kill Betfair apparently .
I don't know the accuracy of my information but I'm sure you will steer us right on the position.
Criminals they are , want to kill all Australian Industries.
Back to Top
Speediskey View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 4116
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 12:56am
Originally posted by Atreus Atreus wrote:

Sneck

Time will tell if the minimum bet laws are enforced but I doubt they will be.  Bookies will soon have to pay
1.  Racefields fees
2.  GST
3.  POC Tax
4.  General expenses of running the business (wages, advertising, website etc)
5.  Payouts to overall winning punters

After all these payments are made they still have to pay 30% company tax on whatever is left over

The bookies will be paying way more to racing and government than they make themselves.  The areas of expense that they can trim will be payouts to winning punters by ignoring the minimum bet laws and cutting back on advertising and promotions

Even V'Landys has said that after this POC Tax the bookies won't be able to cop any more charges without going broke.  So I reckon the minimum bet laws won't be enforced and bookies will make some extra cash that way

In any case you would have to have rocks in your head to keep betting with so many charges imposed.  Better off doing something different with your time.  The Golden Age for punting on Aussie races is behind us.  Best to recognise that and move on

You're missing their biggest 'advertising' expense. 

The 30% odd of all lost money they pay to their affiliate marketing partners who sign up new members. Such as this website, Punters/Racenet or whatever, hence why they all have banners all over them.

Has to be a large percentage of their potential profits going like that.
Back to Top
maccamax View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 41473
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 5:56pm
I didn't pay much commission on the Rugby League ...     With some turnover deductions it's only about 25% of the NSW racing Commission.
Back to Top
Atreus View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 329
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 7:46pm
Speediskey

Affiliate marketing partners would be part of general expenses so No 4.  You are right that it is a big expense.  These payments will likely get cut back for websites like this one, Racenet and Punters.  It would be a good thing if the affiliate payments went altogether
Back to Top
Sneck View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2013
Location: Payout Queue
Status: Offline
Points: 7555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 2:25pm
< ="text/">h1 { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }h1.western { font-family: "Liberation Serif",serif; }h1.cjk { font-family: "WenQuanYi Micro Hei"; font-size: 24pt; }h1.ctl { font-family: "Lohit Devanagari"; font-size: 24pt; }p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120%; }

NSW could be the winners in bookies' fee hike stoush

Corporate bookmakers are set to offer more promotions for punters on Sydney and NSW meetings after the recent race fields fee and point of consumption tax hikes, which have left NSW the least-taxed racing product in the country.

Big bookmaking firms are ready to abandon Victorian racing.  Crownbet  only offered bonus bet promotions on Randwick races last Saturday, and that is set to become the norm.

Racing Victoria has completely underestimated the effect of its race fields fee hike and reportedly failed to model it before going to market.


Bookmakers have run the numbers on the 2017 Victoria race meeting program and, of 517 meetings,  508 show an increase in product fees under the new system and a significant majority would have double-figure increases in fees payable.

Bookmakers are privately considering scaling back advertising deals with Racing Victoria’s media arm, racing.com, as a protest but will promote the  state  where they are best advantaged by the tax system, that is,  NSW.

Racing NSW chief executive Peter V’landys confirmed that there would not be an increase in NSW race fields fees – which are less than other states as they are on turnover only – to allow bookmakers to adjust to the new point of consumption tax starting in 2019.

Racing NSW can sit back and watch the situation develop. Racing NSW already has the most-discussed race of the spring in The Everest and could be set for a boost in race fields fees collected as a result of  promotions that will drive punters to bet on Sydney races.

Provincial and country meetings are  certain to be included in the promotions as bookmakers make their point.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/nsw-could-be-the-winners-in-bookie-s-fee-hike-stoush-20180624-p4znem.html

Back to Top
Sneck View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2013
Location: Payout Queue
Status: Offline
Points: 7555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 2:27pm
I'm totally confused about the state of play pertaining to wagering.
Back to Top
Carioca View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 13 Nov 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 21698
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 2:34pm
Yes, the smarter they get , the more confused we become .
Back to Top
Imetrud View Drop Down
Foal
Foal


Joined: 01 May 2018
Status: Offline
Points: 7
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imetrud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 2:23am
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Yes, the smarter they get , the more confused we become .


The same I have been discussing with a friend yesterday -- they got so smart over the years...
Back to Top
maccamax View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 41473
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2018 at 4:31am
Eventually they kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

It was V'Landy who once said , " Punters wouldn't know if they were paying 10% or 30% in deductions.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.05
Copyright ©2001-2022 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.