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Adding speed to a middle distance mare |
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Sister Dot
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Posted: 07 Jun 2018 at 10:30am |
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Sire under or around 15K Help appreciated, need to book her in
Mare has Hussonet on sire side and Dehere on dam side, Deputy Minister. 4x5 Mr P |
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Second Chance
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Tanbon it'd be a lot easier if you gave us the mare's name.
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djebel
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If we get a name I hope we talk class rather than short course speed.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Gay3
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I agree with the above posters, you've given us about 1/16 of her genetic makeup - tho' maths certainly isn't my strong point!
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Second Chance
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The mare appears to be Wild Hostess.
A complicating factor is that the mare is essentially bred along sprinter/miler lines, despite racing over longer ground. I'd possibly look to duplicate the marvelous Thong/Rough Shod in a future mating, and Smart Missile and Fighting Sun are among those who might be considered. Others may have different opinions.
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Sister Dot
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Sorry, yes the mare is Wild Hostess. She’s sound and has a Excelebration filly on her now, first foal. Have been advised to upgrade and add speed?
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Sister Dot
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Deep Field has been recommended by an astute judge to compliment her lineage and add speed.
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Sister Dot
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[QUOTE=tanbon] [QUOTE=tanbon] Deep Field has been recommended by an astute judge to compliment her lineage and add speed ? To be honest we are baulking at the cost. Dithering as to what to do. FS was on my initial list of sires but I’m a rank beginner at this
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furious
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Yes this is a bit weak with the original mare imported a winner of 10 races including black type races which are like our restricted listed. Any mare who can win 10 races obviously has some ability and she also threw 8 runners for 8 winners. The best being by Fairy King and Hennessy. But even your mare's dam and a sybling by Anabaa won in the city.
So Second Chance's idea of Encosta blood as a son of Fairy King and bringing in more Special Thong blood isn't a bad idea. If you can add some Biscay/Bletchingly as Biscay and Dehere are the same female line it would be a bonus also. So you have Fighting Sun just at that $15K mark but even the Tassy boy Needs Further has the right mix of Encosta/Bletchingly/Biscay. Rubick is advertised as dearer but you could work for a reduced rate. Likewise Manhattan Rain who also has that Encosta/Bletchingly cross. Hennessy blood isn't that readily available One which you would have to get a reduced rate for could be No Nay Never a son of Scat Daddy from the Hennessy sireline. This still has the Mr Prospector crosses but gives you Ogygian (in Johannesburg) and Fappiano (in Host) who share the same grandam. Good luck with your decision.
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45811 |
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Fighting Sun has done well in 2017/18 as a first season stallion.
He's advertised at $15,400 including GST, however the match comes up with 20/20 Gp1 Goldmine ratingwhich means the stud will offer "special incentives" should you book. I'd email Phil Marshall or Adam Henry at Sun Stud, say the match is a 20/20, and ask for their best price. You can further weigh up your options after they respond.
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
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Another advantage in visiting Sun Stud is that rather than paying the service fee after a 45 positive test, it's only payable following the delivery of a live foal. Don't know what the story is at Newgate Farm where Deep Field and Eurozone stand.
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djebel
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Extreme Choice might be an extreme choice but I like him.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Gay3
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Thinking of soundness, would you really want to add 2 more lines of Mr P to her own 3 or would they be distant enough?
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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furious
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He's a funny one Gay with many bred with him in the 2nd line going well and showing no signs of troubles.
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Second Chance
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Good question Gay, and I suspect there's no definitive answer. However if both sire and dam were sound and a "suspect" stallion is four or five generations back in the progeny, I'd have no qualms about the doubling up.
Deep Field was sound so no problem there. Can't speak for Eurozone. Fighting Sun tore a suspensory ligament but imo that's not genetic (as distinct from DSLD in older horses). For example, people here will know that our stakes-winning 3yo Money Maher recently sustained a torn suspensory, however he's by a sire that throws strong stock and is out of a mare whose family is noted for soundness and durability. Simple case of being quickly retrained to avoid getting on heels causing severe impact to the cushioning ligament. We had a Host gelding and he too was bred to be a sprinter/miler but still needed 1600-2000m. So that's probably where the middle distance aspect of Wild Hostess comes from, and perhaps highlights the need for some genuine speed in her matings.
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djebel
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I suspect Wild Hostess was tried at a middle distance just to try something. She showed very little beyond a mile.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Sister Dot
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Her race at Canberra 1600 24.415 she flew home 4th and would have won but jock hopped off and said he had put her behind 2 horses he thought were travelling and they weren’t. Had to try and pull her out and get going again near the post. Started fav at next start as a result.
Qbeyan next start 2000m she flew home running on late down the outside. Ran 6/15. Made up a lot of ground. Canberra 1600 next start, short price again but jockey, who knew her, hopped off and said spell her, something amiss. Last prep she was doing good times at trackwork, trainer expected her to win, she didn’t put it into her race so we retired her. Lost interest, she was always a bit field shy and ran better from outside barriers. Same old bad luck stories everyone has at one time or another. Got slaughtered at Sapphire when she should have led in the wet and won easy, but urposely held back for a last crack at them, and so it goes. Just a bit better than she looks on paper. |
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Sister Dot
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The stallions u have here are the exact ones I initially came up with plus Giants Steps 😊
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Sister Dot
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Wonder what that big dose of Hussonet might produce, has anybody else tried it?
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Sister Dot
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Thanks for your input, some great food for thought🐴 😊
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Progold
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Looking at the family, the first thing we notice is that it is not a highly commercial one. Most of the winners are of fairly moderate races so there would appear little benefit in breeding for a sales ring. In my view, the idea of looking at proven stallions is a distinct advantage in a long term breeding plan for the mare. If we look at the more successful family members, we see that close inbreeding has not been a strategy that has worked, so it is not a strategy that I would be recommending in this case. Perhaps the best runner of late has been a filly by I Am Invincible called Balle D'Or who was placed in Melbourne. This pedigree has relatively little inbreeding, and focuses on the Northern Dancer influence, so maybe breeding away from Mr P could be a key in Australia for this family.
A few stallions that I would be considering in no particular order, and without an in-depth investigation, and sticking in NSW as it would seem prudent to travel as little as possible. Casino Prince - no longer fashionable but can get a good runner and regular winners. The pedigree does bring in another line of Mr P, although through a daughter to balance the all male influence through the mare's pedigree Al Maher - another stallion that is well priced considering his results on the track. Again, a well balanced looking mating and I would suggest a solid racing prospect. Probably my preferred option on face value Testa Rossa - again, a wonderful stallion now getting on a bit, but capable of producing good progeny. This mating probably introduces more speed than the others, and the mare, Thong who obviously has had success with Mr P. Myboycharlie - He had a great impact when first coming here, but maybe his age and his shuttling has affected his performance a bit. Still, a good sire and a reasonable option for the mare. The pedigree looks a little more hit and miss than some of the others, but we have some interesting influences including Thong a little further back, Raise A Native, the sire of Mr P so maybe this is the way to best utilise this influence, Never Bend and of course, Northern Dancer. Like most, I am probably unconvinced that the mare was a staying type, and it would be important to consider her physical type in the assessment especially given this query. As one of our older members once posted wisely, all horse will run two miles, it is just that some do it faster than others. In the case of this mare running over some distance, we have to consider that she may have been running against a field of relatively slow horses rather than quality stayers. If that is the case, the idea of ensuring stamina in the mating is something that can be considered instead of looking at speed influences in particular. |
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furious
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Actually Progold in the family where you do find stakes winners they are inbred usually to a mare. Ie the suggestion of using Thong and Mr Prospector as both have links to other branches with a female with crosses.
I agree this mare isn't commercial though I think they are breeding to race. |
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furious
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Nasrullah, Hyperion, Mumtaz Begum, Nearco, Miss Dogwood, War Relic, Discovery, Count Fleet are just some of the inbreeding. Not close inbreeding but crossed usually 4th or 5th generation. Also they are looking for speed and often speed is through inbreeding and stamina though outcross. Mind you if you inbreed to a speed machine you might see it go further than you think and inbreeding to Sir Tristram etc can see you get a sprinter so there is no set rule.
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Progold
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To be honest, I didn't look that far back into the stakes winners, as those were all overseas and the quality of the races they won are probably questionable. Many Listed races in the US are classified because of the stakes money, which was the equivalent of a Sydney metropolitan race. I was looking at horses like Southern Shimmer and Balle D'Or which are the best of the locals.
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