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2018 Melbourne Cup 3200m Group 1

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Lord Hybrow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord Hybrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 9:50pm
Great thanks for that insight, 55kgs seems a nice weight for him.

Interesting that you peg Stradivarius with only 58kgs. Given his very similar profile to Double Trigger, I’d have thought he’d be deserving of a weight closer to 60kg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 10:19pm
The Cup weights have changed a hell of a lot since Double Trigger and Swain headed the weights.

The handicapper thinks todays stayers are weaklings and incapable of carrying 58+.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 10:21pm
As your cousin might have said to your niece, it's all relative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 3:56pm

Australian Bloodstock has turned to a proven formula in an attempt to win a second Melbourne Cup, with confirmation on Monday that the group was behind the recent purchase of super European stayer Torcedor.

Just like in 2014 when Protectionist won the Melbourne Cup in the Australian Bloodstock colours, Torcedor will be prepared for this spring's $7.3 million Cup by German master Andreas Wohler.

Torcedor, a dual Group 3 winner who has come into his own chasing Stradivarius to fill Group 1 placings at his past two starts in Europe, currently carries a European rating of 119 and will be one of the highest-rated internationals to travel from Europe for the Melbourne Cup.

He has been one of the big movers in Melbourne Cup markets in recent days and on Monday was listed as the equal-second favourite at $17 with BetEasy.

Director Jamie Lovett says Australian Bloodstock and connections are thrilled to have purchased the horse from Te Akau Racing boss David Ellis and over the weekend Torcedor entered the German stables of Wohler.

"Torcedor has got the profile of one of the better horses to ever come from Europe for the Melbourne Cup," Lovett told Racing.com on Monday.

"He's the third-highest timeform-rated horse to come to Australia, but aside from that the way I rate it, he's right up there with the best … no doubt one of the top three two-mile horses in the world right now.

"The horse has arrived at Andreas Wohler's stable in Germany this weekend, I spoke to him last night and Andreas will just spin his wheels now."

Lovett added: "At this stage the plan will be to come out to Australia on the first shipment and in regards to a lead-up run, we don't know at this stage, it will depend how he responds to training and what Andreas thinks.

"I do think that he is the sort of horse who profiles very, very well.

"He's not a Group 1 winner, but if he had beaten Stradivarius in recent runs [in the Ascot Gold Cup or Goodwood Cup] then he'd get top weight in a Melbourne Cup for sure.

"I think it might be a year with a lot of horses up the top end of the weight scale and therefore compressed weights, so it might be a year where you can be up weights and still make your presence felt."

Torcedor was previously trained by Jessica Harrington in Ireland and Lovett explained the work and preparation put into the purchase was thorough, with some of those who enjoyed Melbourne Cup glory with Protectionist having reinvested to try and do it all again.

"We're really bullish about him. He is effective on fast and slow tracks," he said.

"It's so difficult to buy a horse like him from Europe for our Cup because connections are usually targeting an Arc (Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe) or the horse is weighted out of the Cup.

"He is such a good staying horse but we spoke to a few of the riders of there and they said he isn't a dour two-miler, he runs times and runs good mid-race sectionals.

"We discussed this horse at length before we purchased him.

"This was the horse that we really wanted to buy, and to be honest I didn't think we'd be able to buy him off David Ellis.

"It wasn't so much that it was an 'offer too good to refuse' [to Ellis], he is bigger on buying yearlings and you've got to remember that we are so fortunate with our prizemoney that in the end we didn't consider Torcedor to be crazy money for us."

Lovett added: "We've got owners in this horse who have had success with Protectionist.

"Protectionist [winning the Melbourne Cup] was a good year for us and Andreas.

"It's a passion. If you've ever had a runner in the Melbourne Cup you then want one in the race every spring.

"We'll leave our options open. He could be a horse that we return to Royal Ascot with next year given he has proven how good he is at that level.

"But the type of horse he is, a weight-for-age race like The BMW would fit very well too.

"We now want to get him to Werribee with plenty of time and hope for a good preparation."

https://www.racing.com/news/2018-08-20/australian-bloodstock-targeting-melbourne-cup-with-torcedor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 4:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mug-Punter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

<span style="color: rgb102, 102, 102; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em;">
</span>
<span style="color: rgb102, 102, 102; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em;">Australian Bloodstock has turned to a proven formula in an attempt to win a second Melbourne Cup, with confirmation on Monday that the group was behind the recent purchase of super European stayer Torcedor.</span><p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">Just like in 2014 when Protectionist won the Melbourne Cup in the Australian Bloodstock colours, Torcedor will be prepared for this spring's $7.3 million Cup by German master Andreas Wohler.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">Torcedor, a dual Group 3 winner who has come into his own chasing Stradivarius to fill Group 1 placings at his past two starts in Europe, currently carries a European rating of 119 and will be one of the highest-rated internationals to travel from Europe for the Melbourne Cup.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">He has been one of the big movers in Melbourne Cup markets in recent days and on Monday was listed as the equal-second favourite at $17 with BetEasy.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">Director Jamie Lovett says Australian Bloodstock and connections are thrilled to have purchased the horse from Te Akau Racing boss David Ellis and over the weekend Torcedor entered the German stables of Wohler.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"Torcedor has got the profile of one of the better horses to ever come from Europe for the Melbourne Cup," Lovett told <em style="-sizing: border-; : relative;">Racing.com on Monday.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"He's the third-highest timeform-rated horse to come to Australia, but aside from that the way I rate it, he's right up there with the best … no doubt one of the top three two-mile horses in the world right now.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"The horse has arrived at Andreas Wohler's stable in Germany this weekend, I spoke to him last night and Andreas will just spin his wheels now."

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">Lovett added: "At this stage the plan will be to come out to Australia on the first shipment and in regards to a lead-up run, we don't know at this stage, it will depend how he responds to training and what Andreas thinks.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"I do think that he is the sort of horse who profiles very, very well.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"He's not a Group 1 winner, but if he had beaten Stradivarius in recent runs [in the Ascot Gold Cup or Goodwood Cup] then he'd get top weight in a Melbourne Cup for sure.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"I think it might be a year with a lot of horses up the top end of the weight scale and therefore compressed weights, so it might be a year where you can be up weights and still make your presence felt."

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">Torcedor was previously trained by Jessica Harrington in Ireland and Lovett explained the work and preparation put into the purchase was thorough, with some of those who enjoyed Melbourne Cup glory with Protectionist having reinvested to try and do it all again.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"We're really bullish about him. He is effective on fast and slow tracks," he said.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"It's so difficult to buy a horse like him from Europe for our Cup because connections are usually targeting an Arc (Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe) or the horse is weighted out of the Cup.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"He is such a good staying horse but we spoke to a few of the riders of there and they said he isn't a dour two-miler, he runs times and runs good mid-race sectionals.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"We discussed this horse at length before we purchased him.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"This was the horse that we really wanted to buy, and to be honest I didn't think we'd be able to buy him off David Ellis.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"It wasn't so much that it was an 'offer too good to refuse' [to Ellis], he is bigger on buying yearlings and you've got to remember that we are so fortunate with our prizemoney that in the end we didn't consider Torcedor to be crazy money for us."

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">Lovett added: "We've got owners in this horse who have had success with Protectionist.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"Protectionist [winning the Melbourne Cup] was a good year for us and Andreas.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"It's a passion. If you've ever had a runner in the Melbourne Cup you then want one in the race every spring.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"We'll leave our options open. He could be a horse that we return to Royal Ascot with next year given he has proven how good he is at that level.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"But the type of horse he is, a weight-for-age race like The BMW would fit very well too.

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative; font-family: Roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.8em; color: rgb102, 102, 102;">"We now want to get him to Werribee with plenty of time and hope for a good preparation."

<p style="-sizing: border-; : relative;">[COLOR=#666666" face="Roboto, sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 25.2px;]https://www.racing.com/news/2018-08-20/australian-bloodstock-targeting-melbourne-cup-with-torcedor</span>[/COLOR]



What weight would you expect for this fella Djebel???

I would presume near top weight with Best Solution...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 10:23pm
It depends on whether Stradivarius is entered or not. If he is than Torcedor would probably get 1/2 a kilo less than Stradivarius so about 57.5. 

I am expecting whoever the topweight is the top weight will get 58.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 10:30pm
Best Solution might get 57.5 for the Caulfield Cup and 56.5 for the Melbourne Cup.

Prior to his group 1 win in Germany he was rated 3 lbs infrior to Stradivarius 

Stradivarius..............118
Torcedor....................118
Best Solution.............116


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mug-Punter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Best Solution might get 57.5 for the Caulfield Cup and 56.5 for the Melbourne Cup.

Prior to his group 1 win in Germany he was rated 3 lbs infrior to Stradivarius 

Stradivarius..............118
Torcedor....................118
Best Solution.............116




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 5:04pm
Hi guys:
I was reading that they think Torcedor.will be the best horse in this years Melbourne cup.in your guys opinions is that correct?.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by cotto1 cotto1 wrote:

Hi guys:
I was reading that they think Torcedor.will be the best horse in this years Melbourne cup.in your guys opinions is that correct?.


He'll probably be the best 2 miler, i doubt he will be the best horse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2018 at 9:12pm
Nice horse.  May be too dour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brudder_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 3:46am
Originally posted by Brudder_A Brudder_A wrote:

Originally posted by Brudder_A Brudder_A wrote:

Originally posted by Lord Hybrow Lord Hybrow wrote:

Dual Melb Cup placegetter MAX DYNAMITE goes around in the rich Galway Hurdle tonight.

Pretty sure I’ve heard Willie Mullins say he’d head back to Flemington again this year for the Cup.


Interesting field.

21 jumpers....

The comment for Max Dynamite (7/1) from the SportingLife:

Well beaten behind Stradivarius in Gold Cup at Ascot in June. Drops in distance now, appears to be on the wane and plenty of his stablemates appears better placed.




A weak 11th and only made a little headway.

Maybe Max just needs to get to the Southern Hemisphere...


Dual Melb Cup placegetter Max Dynamite finished 7th in the G2 Lonsdale Cup (2 m 56 y) at York today beaten once again by Stradivarius (4/11on fav).

Tracked leaders in 4th, effort over 3f out, ridden and unable to quicken over 2f out, weakened final furlong op
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brudder_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 10:02am
More to the point:

The Melbourne Cup (G1), however, beckons for runner-up Count Octave. Trainer Andrew Balding's wife, Anna Lisa, said: "You couldn't have asked more from him. Hopefully, that means we might get his rating up and get him to Australia. It was a hell of a run—and luckily we didn't ruin the party."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord Hybrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 11:15am
Hopefully the unplaced runs of Max Dynamite & Red Verdon will convince their connections to abandon Melb Cup plans.

And you’d think that with his win that Stradivarius just earned himself a further weight increase for the Cup. He’s better off staying in in the northern hemisphere for races like the Irish St Leger 2800m or Long Distance Cup 3200m.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 11:41am
Originally posted by Lord Hybrow Lord Hybrow wrote:

Hopefully the unplaced runs of Max Dynamite & Red Verdon will convince their connections to abandon Melb Cup plans.

And you’d think that with his win that Stradivarius just earned himself a further weight increase for the Cup. He’s better off staying in in the northern hemisphere for races like the Irish St Leger 2800m or Long Distance Cup 3200m.


He could touch 125 after that effort.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 1:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 2:57am
Muntahaa has never been mentioned as a cup horse. He just won the Ebor in very classy style.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 3:33am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Muntahaa has never been mentioned as a cup horse. He just won the Ebor in very classy style.



The sheikh’s racing manager has just said they will put him in if entries are still open....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 4:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 8:13pm
The hoop kept Muntaaha out on the far rail on his own for a good couple of furlongs or more at the start before drifting across to slot in as they approached the first bend.  It was curious to say the least and I was wondering why he would do that if not to avoid the hurly burly of the big field start - but it appeared to work perfectly for them.  

I was much impressed with the win, but if he is to win the Melbourne Cup he might find the hurly burly a bit harder to avoid unless drawn wide ?  There is a good half mile run to the first turn but Australian fields race notoriously tighter and there is a hairpin bend at the end of that running.  

Also he only had some old Oak trees to keep him company on the outside fence at York but at Flemington the outside rail puts you up close and personal to a drunken multitude which might not do Muntaa's nerves much good. 

Still, I would like to see him make the trip.   A Dansili 5YO dark grey gelding from a Linamix mare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 8:27pm
I think it was actually done to avoid the worse going inside, But I could be wrong cause the bloody stablemate who I was on was in amongst it all.

Of course he was drawn out wide.

I would not be surprised if we start seeing that regularly in  Flemington 3200m contests. I mean why the rush to get across ? 
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According to Gosden he said that when he was standing at the starting point a day or two earlier he realised there was a 4 furlong straight run after the start so he suggested to jockey to keep him wide out of the early bustle.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by horlicks horlicks wrote:

According to Gosden he said that when he was standing at the starting point a day or two earlier he realised there was a 4 furlong straight run after the start so he suggested to jockey to keep him wide out of the early bustle.


So it could well be a mental thing with the horse, Al though I suspect it is just a matter of no points in getting involved early.

He and Frankie did go wide early with Golden Horn for no reason other than it was no point getting in amongst the hustle and bustle early on in the Arc 2 or 3 years ago.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Miami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 9:23pm
In the last 20 years, aside from Maybe Diva being handed a questionable 58kg, Protectionist won at 56.5kg off a suicidal tempo and Delta Blues at 56kg in an odd year where the Japanese horses ran 1-2.

The race once again demonstrates that the majority of European horses are simply not good enough to justify their lofty rating. They need a lighter weight to win and everything to fall their way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by Miami Miami wrote:

In the last 20 years, aside from Maybe Diva being handed a questionable 58kg, Protectionist won at 56.5kg off a suicidal tempo and Delta Blues at 56kg in an odd year where the Japanese horses ran 1-2.

The race once again demonstrates that the majority of European horses are simply not good enough to justify their lofty rating. They need a lighter weight to win and everything to fall their way.

Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Miami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Miami Miami wrote:

In the last 20 years, aside from Maybe Diva being handed a questionable 58kg, Protectionist won at 56.5kg off a suicidal tempo and Delta Blues at 56kg in an odd year where the Japanese horses ran 1-2.

The race once again demonstrates that the majority of European horses are simply not good enough to justify their lofty rating. They need a lighter weight to win and everything to fall their way.

Smile

Many have tried and failed. They are sure as hell trying their best.
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Tontonan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 11:09pm
Jim Cassidy sort of did similar in the 2012 Caulfield Cup.  It didn't exactly work out for him as he went three wide around the first turn and had to push for the front, but he was up against it with only 400m get across.

I am loathe to pretend I know what I am talking about when it comes to riding racehorses but I think that if a horse is inclined to over race they are more inclined to do so with other horses and riders around them.  Crowley seemed to let the horse fits its rhythm out wide before coming across.  

It was a pretty smooth move.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee Gee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2018 at 1:47pm
Connections will nominate the Ebor winner for the MC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2018 at 2:45pm
If anybody has online access to The Australian can you copy and paste the article :Race That Shames a Nation" please ?

As I have said before it is NOT our horses or breeders that are at fault it is our trainers.

We see what they can do with already established and developed stayers, They fail dismally in developing them themselves.


reductio ad absurdum
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