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Who would you breed this mare to? |
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ianb
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Queensland Status: Offline Points: 1311 |
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Posted: 10 May 2017 at 2:25pm |
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I have a placed Haradasun mare who is a maiden She is out of a lovely family and is a half sister to a group 3 winning NZ 2yo of this season. Her name is Shiba Sakura and is from the family of Zamzam, Thunder Lady etc.
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
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Are you selling or racing?
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25179 |
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Shows you I'm on holidays wondered why you posted it twice Djebel! For such a staying family I'm amazed no Zabeel is present yet either.
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Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
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Zabeel is the sire of Sufficient from this family who won at 1600m. Londehero by Lonhro was nominated for the Doomben 10000, so not just a family of stayers. Her half sister won over 1200m as a 2yo and is by Zed, a son of Zabeel, but not necessarily of the staying variety I would suggest. Zed is closely related to Octagonal and out of a Danehill mare.
Ian can tell us, but I have my doubts that the mare is too much of a staying type.
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Online Points: 45805 |
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Furious, one appears to be a match with the mare, the other with her mother (maybe a mistake).
Found the mare desperately hard to match, particularly given she's situated in Queensland, and that might be why an industry professional like ianb has sought advice. Given the mare's family history in stakes races you could arguably do worse than look for a sire containing Zabeel or Sir T, or alternatively seek some Thunder Gulch/Mr Prospector blood. Both are hard to find in Oz, and most are way down south - Reset, Kuroshio and the new sire Mshawish for example. So in essence am happy to pass the baton back to you, Progold, and everyone else willing to express an opinion. |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Yes, Sorry people the first theoretical pedigree was a mistake, the dam rather than the mare herself.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Online Points: 45805 |
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Progold posted about the same time as mine, and his offering provides the opportunity to add to my effort.
If just to say that the Zabeel influence can probably be best be sought via Lonhro and his sons. And I initially went down that path to discover that doing so can come at a cost which might be beyond what some might consider appropriate for the mare in question. Again, back to others.
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Shrunk in the Wash
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I just took a look at her race record and those of her sblings, not many of them seem to have won over a distance. The mate herself flopped badly at 2 goes at the mil
Struck me as odd given he pedigree |
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Shrunk in the Wash
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Re write
I just took a look at her race record and those of her siblings, not many of them seem to have won over a distance. The mare herself flopped badly at 2 goes at the mile Struck me as odd given he pedigree |
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ianb
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Queensland Status: Offline Points: 1311 |
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On type she is quite a good sized mare, when I purchased her I was told by others she was a different to most of the female side who are predominately small apparently. With her race results she initially showed Matt Kropp a tonne of ability, I started enquiries about her after she ran down the track in toowoomba. She was hit with grass clods a few times and started sucking wind through the vagina and obviously gave up the whole race horse idea. Ideally I would send her to something commercial. I am not a big fan of Holy Roman Emperor, Rothesay appeals but not really for the ring. I would really like a proven horse that is affordable for a stud workers wage. A Snitzel stallion I thought would be ok and even Attention would suit her
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v and m
Champion Joined: 21 May 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1119 |
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Just an interesting thought, may not mean much but when I looked at Shiba Sakura's pedigree and saw she was by F Peg I went looking for successful crosses and Capitalist is one that comes to mind. I also noticed the Vain in capitalist's pedigree (found also in Shiba's pedigree) that has been found to be successful quite a few times when crossed with Last Tycoon and Snippets bloodlines, these include All Too Hard, Black Caviar, SooBoog, Stratum Star etc so dejebel's suggestion is pretty good.
another one that you might want to consider is Holler, he is the from the same family as Written Tycoon (sire of Capitalist) he is by commands, same family as Octagonal and others that have worked well when crossed with Zabeel and Holler has Sir Ivor x 2 and Sir Tristram in his pedigree but he is a bit pricey though so it depends greatly on what your budget is
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ZAMINGA
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Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
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A couple of quick thoughts.
Red Dazzler is a solid option, but will probably struggle a bit in the sales ring. Decent pedigree page, so if a nice type in a friendly sale it could surprise. More likely to get a mile, and if the mare has a bit of scope, this should suit. Bel Esprit at the higher end could make a sales prospect but obviously conformation is a key here. With the Vain focus, I wouldn't expect the progeny to get more than 1400m, but if the mare looks more this type, then it would be easy to lean this way, especially with a more commercial focus.
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goldey
Champion Joined: 29 Dec 2012 Location: cairns Status: Offline Points: 5942 |
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I dont mind Statue of Liberty for her , gives a sex balanced cross of Storm Bird which ties into Sound Reason also , could he do a Written Tycoon in Qld .Icould entertain Husson also for obvious reasons .Good luck with her Ian , very nice family to play with.
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bradjm
Champion Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 6175 |
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I know you don't like hre but he would probably be the most commercial sire in Qld and not a bad stud record either with nearly 6% SW/r they love him in HK.
Then there my old fav Domesday, sitting on 60% w/r and 3% SW/r and the majority of them in the much stronger states of Vic and nsw. Its pretty tough out there for small breeders, most stallions with a good record are expensive and the unproven ones that smelt the arse of a group one winner are even way overpriced. |
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ianb
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Queensland Status: Offline Points: 1311 |
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My thoughts on HRE are that he bred the cream of the mares when at Coolmore at $66k and really didn't set the world on fire, I don't think BIG trainers are that forgiving if they paid big money for the progeny. Domesday is a good horse and I do like Statue.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25179 |
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Well Djebel above gave you a female cross. I think it's a female line which has produced some very good staying types so something like Sadler's Wells, Zabeel etc wouldn't be bad.
Or you can go for the sprinter with staying blood. Sovereign Edition and Ahonoora/Fairy King in Spill the Beans give an interesting mix of blood which could go either way in that plenty of speed and stamina have been produced from his female line and Snitzel himself has sired some stayers.
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Breeder
Champion Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 802 |
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How about Casino Prince ?
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Shrunk in the Wash
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The best in the recent pedigree would have to be Tully Thunder
I'm no expert on this stuff so how do you go about getting some of that Thundet Gulch into her? |
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Nostradamus II
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Sunshine Coast Status: Offline Points: 2621 |
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I'm with Djebel...
Roman Emperor looks good on paper. For my 2 cents worth, no scientific studies but I have noticed that often, female lines that lose some vitality enjoy a close up return of a potent ancestor to re-establish some sort of rejuvenation. Shiba Sakura showed some ability, being placed 4 times from 13 starts and her dam Fleur De L'Orient produced 3 winners from 6 runners including recent 2yo G3 winner Irish Flame. This is a far cry from 3rd dam Fleur de Chine, a G2 winner who produced 10 winners from 13 runners including Listed winner Sufficient and G1 winner Tully Thunder (Australasian Oaks, South Australian Oaks). The next dam back, Sellou was unraced but bred 4 winners from 5 starts including G3 winner, G1 placed Sneetch (NZ Oaks, granddam of Roman Emperor), Fleur De Chine and G3 placed Sandarac. The key to this puzzle may be Sellou by Bold Reason's son Sound Reason. Roman Emperor's 3rd dam is of course Sellou thereby giving a 4x4 cross to the mating. There is a reinforcement of Sellou's sire line as Roman Emperor brings in another line of Bold Reason as damsire of Sadler's Wells and also brings greater than half brother Never Bend as sire of Mill Reef. Could be off track here, often am but something to think about.
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.Swynford.
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Congratulations ianb on obtaining this mare, i think you have brought into a wonderful family. It is a family that I am very interested in as I have a friend who breeds from a daughter of Tully Thunder (brought on my recommendation,) Roman Emperor was designed on this software (nothing to do with me ) and I race a horse that has won two from two by Sufficient.
First of all I shall explain a little on how I would go about planning the mating for Shiba. The most prolific stats I have seen in the production of Group One winners comes from a pattern 'or technique' that is similar in Sir Tristram, Zabeel and Redoute's Choice and that is when the top line of the mare is matched with the bottom line of the stallion. |
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.Swynford.
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.Swynford.
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.Swynford.
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.Swynford.
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So returning to Shiba Sukura.. below are the places (the male lines of the dams in her pedigree) I would look at first, and try and incorporate these into the planned mating in order to give you the greatest result.
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.Swynford.
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So the horse that I would be trying to copy or base the planned mating around is Flying Artie. He is a horse that to my mind is 'line bred' to this wonderful Bruce Lowe #13 family. And your mare is similar to his dam.
In simple terms he is out of a mare that has two male lines ( YOUR MARE HAS THREE ) that trace to the # 13 family that was sent to a stallion that descends in direct female line to the #13 family. Top line of the mare with the bottom line of the stallion with the common ancestor being the mare Frizette. I have moved Tourbillon forward on the male line for easier viewing.
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.Swynford.
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If out of your budget range , I hope you come into funds and can consider the mating. Alternatives are to bring a partners in. Pluses are that he is a proven sire.
Below is the mating of ... FLYING SHIBA Artie Schiller / Shiba Sukura As well as the top line of the mare with the bottom line of the stallion I love the Mr Prospector line mare with a Northern Dancer stallion (this duplicates Northern Dancer's brood-mare sire Native Dancer) so TWO patterns here. Completing the mating and just as important as the line breeding in the centre of the pedigree is the duplication of Bold Reason on the male line of Sellou and as the sire of Sadler's Well's dam.
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StormSiren
Champion Joined: 23 Jul 2015 Location: Canberra Status: Offline Points: 1808 |
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Your mare's dam FLEUR DE L'ORIENT has a very similar profile to the dam of my mare, DE CHORUS, being by Mr. Prospector line stallions out of Centaine mares. De Chorus' best two to date would be Siren's Fury who is twice listed placed, and Hot King Prawn who is one from one in Hong Kong.
I think Denman, sire of HKP, could work quite well. He has the Mr P, Vain and Marscay blood found in your mare, and looking at common ancestors in his best progeny you see a handful that match your mare - Mr P (Denpurr, Kuro, Deja Blue, Merriest, Fitocracy), Storm Bird (Denpurr, Law), Biscay (Denpurr, Merriest)
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Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren, Sirens Star, Elpis & Wait For It.
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