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Northern territory prison brutalisation |
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Rattlesnake
Champion Joined: 15 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 705 |
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Use of solitary confinement above and beyond what the Act allows is obviously wrong and would need to be addressed. I never said that everything done was correct. What I have done is provide examples of why certain actions are taken. IMO being automatically shocked at seeing a 17 year old with a hood on and in wrist restraints without arming yourself with the knowledge of why those measures are taken is pure ignorance. If it comes down to the rights of a violent criminal being allowed to spit on an employee, or the rights of an employee being able to work without being spat on and waiting 3 months to find out whether they have contracted a communicable disease, I'll be supporting the employee's rights. The violent criminal has taken the personal choice to spit on an employee, these actions have consequences. Regarding people who have threatened self harm, stripping people of their clothing and providing prison issued clothing saves lives. It's common practice. Maybe you should try looking into research done regarding the most frequent self harm methods tried in custody (strangulation and hanging with clothing and accessories) before passing judgement. Socks, underwear, shirts, pants. It's not just belts and shoe laces. If these procedures weren't in place, or were ignored, and an increase in Police custody suicides was seen, people would be ranting and raving about why policies aren't in place to remove the items used in the suicides.
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Rattlesnake
Champion Joined: 15 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 705 |
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Maybe if we keep explaining the above again and again, it might begin to sink in. Apparently thinking it's a good idea to remove clothing and accessories from a person threatening self harm is an indictment on your character, rather than simply thinking it's an obvious step to take to ensure a lower risk of the person being able to kill or injure themselves.
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3blindmice
Champion Joined: 22 Oct 2012 Status: Offline Points: 18105 |
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Yes Macca and Abu Ghraib was a reaction to the horrors and stresses soldiers were subjected to in a dirty war against a sociopathic enemy. Even Calley's mass murder of Vietnamese villagers can be explained away if you want to take that line. Rattlesnake would be first cab off the rank in this forum but you'd probably be shouting encouragement from the sidelines - and I'm sure you know better. Such behaviour is obviously understandable to an extent, the question is should a supposedly advanced society tolerate it - particularly in the case of youth detention.
No doubt the handlers at these institutions have difficult jobs. They are highly likely to have inadequate resources, the right characters, or the right access to outside assistance. That's where "the system" aka institutions, their "leaders" and policies, and ultimately political overseers are to be held responsible. The treatment we've seen is obviously the simplest solution for some people - including the NT Chief Minister it seems (and possibly others before him), but it's plainly NOT the only answer, and it's certainly far from the best - unless of course the aim is to create future hardened crims.
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3blindmice
Champion Joined: 22 Oct 2012 Status: Offline Points: 18105 |
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As a highly self-rated backyard practitioner of quaint neocon philosophy you clearly have difficulty with simple concepts but here's a tip - there are better ways of ensuring that a detention hanging doesn't occur. Using the monitoring system they have in place would be one but even that is reactionary. Smarter men than you and I - well more you - have written about the psychological damage that stripping a juvenile can do. In this case it's got as least as much to do with humiliation and exertion of power as it has to do with "care" about the inmate, although I can see how you'd arrive at the conclusion that these handlers were extremely concerned for the mental and physical health of their charges. While we (well some of us) might be appalled at the handlers actions here the real question for the RC is "why was it so". The answer will almost certainly be better systems, better staff, and better resources - including professional help and rehab programs. As we've seen in the abuse RC there will always be individuals who take advantage of their positions of trust. The only way around that is transparency and to make the whole chain responsible .
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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3 Blind Mice .. I may remind you I was employed in that area for many, many years and handled much worse people than 4 Corners showed you. Parramatta Criminal Psychiatric , the infamous ward 13 at North Ryde.
Murderers galore who had been found not guilty on the grounds of insanity . 2 Royal Commissions showed no alternative there . They closed them down and dumped the inmates onto society on pensions as a result of Unions and good meaning people like you. . Need I mention Anita Cobby , Daniel Morcombe , jill Meagher , Milat's victims again , plus thousands of other lives lost as a direct result. You can't change these people with verbal diarrhoea. Even the Senior Aboriginal people like Warren Mundine will disagree with you.
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Rattlesnake
Champion Joined: 15 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 705 |
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The World Health Organisation states the following; Physical Environment and Architecture; Most inmates commit suicide by hanging using bedding, shoelaces
or clothing. A suicide-safe environment would be a cell or dormitory that
has eliminated or minimized hanging points and unsupervised access to
lethal materials. Actively suicidal inmates may require protective clothing or
restraints. Because of the controversial nature of restraints, clear policies
and procedures must be in place if they are to be used. -------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry 3blindmice, I disagree that believing that putting somebody in protective clothing that reduces the risk of suicide is the hideous character flaw you make it out to be. The WHO also touched on the use of restraints in the above as well. I don't believe it's a stretch to think that a drug affected person eating their mattress, threatening to snap bones in their hands etc may be actively suicidal. I can see why there could be effects that were detrimental to mental health, but ensuring the person doesn't actually kill themselves by physically ensuring that they can't do it is also important. I'll leave it there, as you've shown yourself to be unable to discuss this without attacking posters personally.
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3blindmice
Champion Joined: 22 Oct 2012 Status: Offline Points: 18105 |
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Off topic Macca, and your cause and effect needs some work, although I think I recall seeing a report on recidivism and the link between serious property crime and the likelihood of moving up to criminal harm. Don't hold me to that, I'd have to refresh. I'm certainly not in favour of release of offenders in many of the cases (or bail in the Meagher case) you listed even if rehab appears to have worked.
Mundine ? I'd be wary of throwing someone else on the bonfire like that. I'm unaware that he's made any statement in this particular case but he's certainly made plenty of the incarceration of indigenous youth. He's no oracle but always worth listening to. Just checked and Mundine's statements appear to contradict you. " The chairman of the prime minister’s Indigenous advisory council, Warren Mundine, said: “We have a cultural problem within the corrective services industry and, you know, I wouldn’t be surprised if it goes further than the Northern Territory.” He was also on Sky News saying isolation has to be done in some cases but "it's the way we do it, and we do it more humanely." And on 7:30: " I have not seen any evidence that locking up kids works." |
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3blindmice
Champion Joined: 22 Oct 2012 Status: Offline Points: 18105 |
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Shifting the argument might work with forelock tuggers Rattlesnake but it doesn't cut it with me. Having read some of your other rambles I'm not in the least surprised you have difficulty with the concept of basic human rights let alone the obvious mistreatment of disadvantaged youth. The protective clothing you now euphemise about presumably in your mind includes human skin? You can try and rationalise it any way you like but it's comforting that neither the general public nor (thankfully) those in power at the Fed level agree with you.
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Whale
Champion Joined: 01 Jun 2009 Location: St Kilda Beach Status: Offline Points: 38719 |
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A lot of the kids are violent, ratbag hopeless cases no doubt, in some peoples' eyes this justifies any behaviour to restrain or punish them.
Macca if this is 1 one a scale ,what is 10 ? And how much personal involvement and to what level have you participated in ? Just curious |
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Rattlesnake
Champion Joined: 15 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 705 |
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In the footage I've seen Vollers was left with detention center / prison clothing to wear. This is usually specialised clothing that reduces risk of self harm via hanging, strangulation etc. I find you quiet easy to rebut you because your main technique is to attack the poster personally rather than offer anything of substance to the discussion. My issue is that I want to discuss the topic rather than waste my time sifting through false equivalencies, lies, and personal attacks that don't require responses. |
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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3 blind mice . . Warren Mundine was on Sky just days ago. told of one young man aged 14 he met and said he was impressive . Then stated he was in detention as a serial , random rapist.
-------------- Whale . I started at Bloomfield Psychiatric centre in 1952. ( No anti psychotics those days ) 1800 inmates. 90 % of patients great , harmless and needed asylum . The 2 danger wards were hell houses. Many very serious assaults and unmanageable at times , 1 murder while I was there till 1965 . 2 nurses stabbed , 1 killed since ( approx. 2013 ).. Numerous models of "straight Jackets in use regularly . For Quite a few, full time dress was canvas ( slept on canvas rugs ) , various restriction jackets in operation 24/24. Customs on Sydney Waterfront 2 years . Parramatta Psychiatric Centre ( Cumberland ) 67/ 1974. The Criminal ( 2 wards) Psychiatric there until they were moved to Morrisett NSW . Hell Houses. Physical intervention required on a daily basis. Director of Nursing in a Privately owned Repatriation Hospital ( psychiatric ) Burwood. That was heaven . Broke my Heart when it changed hands. Mostly WW2 Vets , ageing and shattered by their Army days .FYI. Repat was wonderful to them. To the infamous ward 13 North Ryde 1985 . ( dangerous offenders found not guilty on the grounds of insanity ) 2 murders of innocents by escapees about that time . Very difficult area . I then had several years at the ( General )Prince Henry Hospital Little bay ( Next to long bay Gaol) That hospital received most aboriginal Admissions for the entire region ( down as far as the Nowra area) in the South. Shoalhaven Hospital did house some Aboriginal admissions. The indigenous people were not a major problem in my time there. I returned to North Ryde in early 1992 and was pensioned off ( injured ) in 1994. As a result of an assault by a heroine crazed inmate who went beserk with a heavy deck chair . ( shattered Knee) Those happenings were not unusual , were costly by way of compensation to staff ( sick leave and payouts ) . Many Nurses worked around the Circuit during time off , For the On call nursing services . I may add whale . Sadly , assaults on Nurses & para- medics is now an epidemic almost everywhere. Young men like the 4 Corners video show, are the usual offenders. Some areas have great difficulty getting Nurses to work in these worst areas now days and Security Staff are now an added expense for taxpayers. |
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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Seems that nothing good has happened for these people in the past 50 years, and things are only getting worse.
The ABC story does not report on the problem, only on a symptom. These 11 yo terrorists are a product of their "tribe", and they are imprinted with these antisocial characteristics long before they enter the corrective services system. The civil libertarians have failed once again - looks like it's time to revert to the auspices of the Aboriginal Protection Act ...
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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3blindmice
Champion Joined: 22 Oct 2012 Status: Offline Points: 18105 |
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QUOTE=Rattlesnake]
In the footage I've seen Vollers was left with detention center / prison clothing to wear. This is usually specialised clothing that reduces risk of self harm via hanging, strangulation etc. I find you quiet easy to rebut you because your main technique is to attack the poster personally rather than offer anything of substance to the discussion. My issue is that I want to discuss the topic rather than waste my time sifting through false equivalencies, lies, and personal attacks that don't require responses. [/QUOTE] Moral of the story - your failure to actually read the many available news reports of what transpired, or the formal report linked above doesn't excuse your ignorance, even if it is par for the course for your ilk. If you're going to attempt to defend something, even with obscure references to "rules" which are clearly counter-productive, certainly "explosive" and most would argue are violations of normal human standards (see the Gwynne report), then you should as a minimum have the basics correct. "Half the world" has now seen footage of Voller being forceably stripped, but somehow you managed to miss it. Too much time spent in trying to justify the unjustifiable. Your attempt to be "clever" by quoting rules is hollow. Anyone wanting an insight into just how gross were the conditions, the negligence, incompetence, lack of proper of procedure, training and direction should peruse Gwyne's report. This apparently mirrors to some extent a 2012 report by the previous Child Commissioner Dr Howard Bath. Quote: The full investigation was presented to the government in 2012, but it was never publicly released or tabled in parliament. It details serious concerns about Mr Voller spending extended periods of time in solitary confinement and being the subject of "inappropriate and excessive force". Dr Bath said the government was warned well before the tear gassing of six boys in 2014 that action had to be taken. "In 2012 the occurrence of this sort of response to young people in detention was made known to the various authorities in youth justice," Dr Bath told Four Corners. "Specific recommendations in 2012 were made about safer ways to intervene, to provide training, to provide support, supervision for the workers involved so that harm would not occur to the young people." But the incidents continued. Witnesses and child detainees, speaking for the first time, have told Four Corners Mr Voller was repeatedly targeted by guards inside. I'll leave you with just one extract from the Gwynne report from one of the YJO's involved in the "riot": YJO B told investigators:
‘The kids kept asking if they could get out and management never had any answers
for them and the detainees went off and I don’t blame them, I would have too. It
wouldn’t have happened if they didn’t keep them in there for so long. It is horrible,
it stinks, they do the spring cleaning every Saturday but when you’ve got so many
kids in there and they are all going to the toilet and they were sharing cells, it is not
nice living arrangements or accommodation, I am surprised it didn’t happen
sooner.’
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Whale
Champion Joined: 01 Jun 2009 Location: St Kilda Beach Status: Offline Points: 38719 |
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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It happens regularly , and to think improving conditions or reducing " time out " helps anything . It doesn't , take your eyes off them or believe their assurances is just a waste of time .
You will get let own every time and the whole cycle starts again. Referring to 11 year olds is just to make the situation look worse , Most are much older than that & many are Institutionalised and live their life that way I note they banned the spittle hood and the restraint chair today. What do you think is the response now when Officers get spat on , punched , kicked. Bomb their brain with heavy drugs and supervise zombies. THEN--- release them to Rob, Terrorise Rape & kill. When released, all of them should be taken in and given a home by Politicians.
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Go Flash Go
Champion Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 10250 |
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They haven't banned the burqa
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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GOOD POINT FLASH . or the mutilations or the support for Shari law. The ABC is a doozie for misleading the Public. I saw a documentary recently on the dungeons at Parramatta Psychiatric Centre and the old and dilapidated Buildings the unfortunate Patients were housed in they said. FALSE The so called dungeons were closed generations before my time ( over 80 years ago ) and the New Hospital was built in the early 1960's close to where Westmead Hospital was to be built & Marsden Hospital for the kids.
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Isaac soloman
Champion Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Status: Offline Points: 6085 |
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Perhaps Maccamax you stayed too long at the job, becoming cynical, instaed of helping the problem becoming part of the problem.
Having kids i know dealing with 11 year olds [even younger] and up can be tough, but up to 3 adult males to sort a "problem", wow........... I thought i might become part of the aged care industry but after experiencing bullying/uncaring staff and crass lecturers decided to give it a miss, for my own mental health. And then to read, almost daily, the rubbish that occurs; indifference, neglect, etc, etc, im bloody glad i did.
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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You touched on some very good points in few words Isaac. Workers in the areas you mention do suffer personal damage from such horrific environments. Your measuring the numbers of staff shown in those videos wouldn't reflect the true picture , only the finale after they had taken control of the volatile situation. The staff did nothing wrong and no visible injury was evident. Forget this 11 year old business , and spend some time researching the history of the offenders before and since those videos were taken. I am aware my workplace choice wasn't in my best interests over time but the Systems we talk about are most certainly not managed in the best interests of Society. Thousands have lost their lives over the years as a result and that will continue long into the future. This waste of resources on Royal Commissions will achieve nothing and only increase the risks to the community , For the very reason that Staff we rely on to handle the dangers will be reluctant to choose what is the best options. You admit you couldn't handle the unsatisfactory mix of aged care and I do understand that, but let me assure you , The areas of criminal Psychosis are a far different and more draining experience on the staff than aged care facilities.
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thesherrif
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acacia alba
Champion Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41536 |
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You see this so often. Everyone jumps up and down at the way staff act or react , but very few of these that are jumping up and down would be prepared to take on the job.
And the worse the offenders become, the less you will get that will do the job. Or at the very least, you will get the dregs doing it, and then what ?? Things will become even worse than before. Its like Foster Care for children. I know quite a few who loved doing it , back say 20 years ago. Now they just cant put themselves thru it, because of the laws , to uphold the rights, of the dead beat, abusive, druggie parents, who just as the Fosters get the child sorted and safe and happy, back come the parents into the kid,s life and ruin all the good work , and the cycle starts all over again. Too many rights for offenders and not enough for victims. I was on the fence over that bit of film that started this thread, but having seen more behind the scenes info and things that were not shown or told, that have since come to light, I cant imagine why anyone would choose to work with kids and young people like those . And I bet their pay is miserable , too. I bet there are not many here who would take on a job like that .
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animals before people.
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3blindmice
Champion Joined: 22 Oct 2012 Status: Offline Points: 18105 |
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Read the report Macca - none of the kids had attempted to spit at handlers. The testimony of the YJOs is very illuminating on a whole range of points. I'll reserve final judgement but it does appear that people further up the line are far more deserving of a good kicking. Just as a final note for apologists who claim that officers were merely acting to protect Voller from himself when three of them stripped him. Seems at odds with the fact that one of them carried in and left some white material in the cell - clearly evident in the video.
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Whale
Champion Joined: 01 Jun 2009 Location: St Kilda Beach Status: Offline Points: 38719 |
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It is human nature to become desensitised, bitter in the face of difficult conditions, feel invincible when in a position of some authority, overstep reasonable standards when in control of others.
Sure it is a rotten , difficult job but there must be some scrutiny and control when officers overstep the mark, they cannot be allowed free rein as some believe, extrapolating some horrible incidents of inmate behaviour to licence to treat them all as you want. And yes it is an awful job, I would not do it if they paid me |
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acacia alba
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One has to look at the people who were supposed to be in charge , before unloading on blokes doing a difficult job.
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animals before people.
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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We must be reading different evidence 3BM. That boy has an horrendous record both then and since . The Officers were very gentle in securing in the restraint chair ( for 2 Hours ) Our Opinions won't change anything , except we may realise what a difficult task it is to try and reduce the terrible price the community pays. If you or anyone else think you have a way to change / improve Dylan Voller ( good luck ) He fits the profile of a murder going somewhere to happen.
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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[QUOTE=acacia alba]You see this so often. Everyone jumps up and down at the way staff act or react , but very few of these that are jumping up and down would be prepared to take on the job.
And the worse the offenders become, the less you will get that will do the job. Or at the very least, you will get the dregs doing it, and then what ?? Things will become even worse than before. Its like Foster Care for children. I know quite a few who loved doing it , back say 20 years ago. Now they just cant put themselves thru it, because of the laws , to uphold the rights, of the dead beat, abusive, druggie parents, who just as the Fosters get the child sorted and safe and happy, back come the parents into the kid,s life and ruin all the good work , and the cycle starts all over again. Too many rights for offenders and not enough for victims. I was on the fence over that bit of film that started this thread, but having seen more behind the scenes info and things that were not shown or told, that have since come to light, I cant imagine why anyone would choose to work with kids and young people like those . And I bet their pay is miserable , too. I bet there are not many here who would take on a job like that . -------------- How true AA. . Nice to see a considered comment. If we gave some thought to "what" is walking around out there in some areas . > many would install razor wire security around our house and not venture out. Considering at least 250 of us will be murdered in the next 12 months & just as many disappear without trace . That will increase when they close these detention centres. Police will solve about 50% of the killings. |
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52012 |
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macca & a few others will appreciate this opinion piece
The ABC has misled the public about this ‘torture’ Andrew Bolt Daily Telegraph Friday, July 29, 2016 (8:41am) The ABC’s presentation of this incident is looking more suspicious by the day. Here is how Four Corners presenter Sarah Ferguson described the above scene - of Dylan Voller being strapped to a restraint chair: The image you have just seen isn’t from Guantanamo bay.... or Abu Ghraib.. but Australia in 2015… A boy, hooded, shackled, strapped to a chair and left alone. It is barbaric. This is juvenile justice in the Northern Territory, a system that punishes troubled children instead of rehabilitating them As I said yesterday: No reason was given for what was presented as gratuitous torture.... But the ABC omitted the context that explains why he was restrained. Voller has been in and out of detention centres since he was 11. A court was told he’d attacked his mother and had committed more than 50 offences so far, many violent. He’d got on ice, tried to run down a policeman and joined in a pack attack that left a victim unconscious. He’d spat at detention centre staff hundreds of times and before he was strapped into that chair, footage not aired by the ABC shows the guards telling Voller he’d been chewing on his mattress and had “unfortunately ... put yourself in here by going at risk”. Voller replies: “I’m going to break my hand anyway ... I’ll snap my bone through my skin.” The guard then says Voller must then be strapped to a restraint chair to help him “keep chilling out”. The hood is actually a mesh to stop him spitting on guards. There may well be a better way to stop a strong young man from spitting on staff and harming himself. But to simply present this as torture of an essentially harmless boy is misleading and inflammatory. But this is all that Four Corners said about Voller’s record: A troubled boy with behavioural problems, Dylan Voller has been in and out of juvenile detention since he was 11 years old. For car theft, robberies and, more recently, assault. He’s one of the Northern Territory’s most notorious young offenders. But he himself is a victim and there’s a lot the public doesn’t know about the plight of Dylan Voller. Here are more details Four Corners refused to report - perhaps for fear that the context might moderate the outrage it wanted to incite: Voller’s spree began in Alice Spring’s iconic Todd Street, where he and the two other young men tried to rob a man walking to work. A court later heard that Voller, then a slightly built teen, ran bare-chested at the man, yelling “you fat white racist dog. You yelled at us”. The three teens took the man’s wallet, knocked him to the pavement and kicked him in the ribs. Still high on drugs the following day, the boys ambushed Luke McIntyre near a store where the 17-year-old was trying to buy cigarettes. Voller struck him with a mop handle, punched him in the face and stole his wallet. Mr McIntyre was bashed unconscious, then his three assailants fled in a Holden Commodore. Voller was behind the wheel and tried to run down a “terrified” Constable Gerard Reardon who had ordered the trio to stop.
But the ABC has instead deployed its massive power to portray Voller as
an innocent child victim of torture. Here is how one ABC report
pictured the strapping teen: I think Four Corners has fundamentally misrepresented Voller as a mere “boy” and a “victim”, and misrepresented the restraint of this violent and potentially self-harming teenager as torture. |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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Did I hear that they have banned use of the hood and the restraint chair as a knee jerk reaction to this?
Voller will be treated like a Rock Star when he is next incarcerated ... which will just be a matter of time ...
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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Good luck controlling them when the CS Officers quote OH & S concerns, down tools and refuse to work under those conditions ...
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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3blindmice
Champion Joined: 22 Oct 2012 Status: Offline Points: 18105 |
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Yes AA and the reports and history as outlined publicly would suggest that while the YJOs had a role in the whole saga, theirs was not the major fault. The whole system broke down due to a complete lack of care from the top - possibly including the judiciary, but at the very least, the government of the day and its institutional managers.
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