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Cardinal Pell |
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31290 |
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He doesn't ask readers to infer anything. He states plainly that: "The 4 percent figure appears lower than school teachers
during the same time frame, and certainly less than offenders in the
general population of men." |
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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stayer
Champion Joined: 10 Aug 2010 Status: Offline Points: 21888 |
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But but everyone KNOWS that catholic priests are all pedophiles. It's the vibe.
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stayer
Champion Joined: 10 Aug 2010 Status: Offline Points: 21888 |
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rusty nails
Champion Joined: 20 Mar 2013 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 11301 |
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And in the next sentence he quotes % numbers of victims in general population. Why? Clearly, it’s designed to make you think the 4% number is comparable,when it clearly isn’t. The actual report he gets the 4% number says that the 1970 cohort actually offended at a 10% rate. Nowhere does he explain how he can state the rates of offending teachers or general members of the public. Just the vibe And you know, faith........ |
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11716 |
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Even if you take the 4% at face value, it’s misleading. People are entrusting their children to the care of this mob, not average people on the street. Hey, send you kids to our school, there’s only a one in 25 chance they’ll get buggered.
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11716 |
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There is a bit of a bait and switch at the end in comparing priests not to the general population but to “any other institution in which adults are in a position of authority and power over children”.
The thing is, the claims look to be wrong. The Royal Commission is now clearly showing that the rate for priests is considerably higher, and this is perhaps the most robust study to date. But even a good analysis of previous data appears to show the clergy significantly higher than the general population. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2017/06/30/catholic-clergy-likely-paedophiles-general-public/ |
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11716 |
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From the same piece:
Reminding you of an earlier point: one issue with comparing stats is that for the priests, these are people who have been outright accused; for the general population, this might be people who have shown interest on the internet and have had their interest flag up in surveys. Priests doing this will not have featured on the clergy results. |
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11716 |
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He mentions the JJC article referred to in the link above to come at his figure. The he says it’s supported by “several other studies” but doesn’t reference any of them |
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Tontonan
Champion Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Status: Offline Points: 3898 |
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Be very clear about this. The apologists for the child sex offenders within the Catholic Church want to mislead us and makes me Angry.
The 4.3% figure being spouted by Stayer is the total number of priests reported to have engaged in the sexual abuse of children as reported by the Catholic Church. It is the result of a study authorized and paid for by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. The study was difficult because offending priests were moved (by the church) from parish to parish in different diocese where they repeatedly re-offended. Ernst and Young were employed to fish out such duplicates and strip the data of anything that might identify the perpetrators. It chronically understates the case because in the USA some dioceses are compelled to release internal abuse files to the police or the public and in other states they are not, and the John Jay survey depended on the honesty of dioceses to self report. By design the origins of the data were not identified (i.e. there no way of telling from which diocese the data was originating) but in those dioceses where mandatory public reporting is practiced the rate of reporting is more than double the national average claimed by John Jay. For example: Diocese of Providence RI: More than 10% Archdiocese of Philadelphia: 7.7% Diocese of Manchester NH: 8.9% Diocese of Covington KY: 9.6% (source : BishopAccountability.org) In other words the church, when not compelled to mandatory report incidents of child sexual abuse by its clergy chronically understates it. Reporting of sexual assault by clergy is also known to be chronically under reported in Australia. The Royal Commission found that the average time between suffering the assault and reporting the assault in Australia was 33 years, a figure that is reducing as victims become more confident in the legal system and the support networks for survivors of sexual abuse as children. With such a lag in makes any data before 1993 all the more unreliable as there is undoubtedly a remainder yet to be reported. The John Jay survey was based on 1950 to 2002. The John Jay researchers made the point,
According John Jay only 24% of the cases reported to the Church were reported to police and of that 24% only 37% were prosecuted or 6% of all those reported to the church. The John Jay study makes it very plain in the introduction to its report :
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11716 |
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So, to recap. The numbers from the psychologist op-ed are garbage. And they’re supported by studies that don’t exist.
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Passing Through
Champion Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Location: At home Status: Offline Points: 79533 |
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''I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and not lose a single vote''.
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Passing Through
Champion Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Location: At home Status: Offline Points: 79533 |
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Suffer the perpetrator: Pell and the twisted inversion of victimhoodJustice has been served. Or has it? The saga of George Pell is not yet over. The Victorian Court of Appeal's decision to uphold the cardinal's conviction for child sex abuse may yet reach the High Court. We will find out soon enough. Our response to the case has revealed much about us as Australians. For all our national myth-making about egalitarianism, it's clear that power still goes a long way in this place. The powerful will always have their friends, who will always defend them. No matter what their crime. Back in March, Pell was sentenced to a minimum of three years and eight months' jail for sexually abusing two 13-year-old choirboys in 1996, while he was archbishop of Melbourne. The reaction of his supporters was extraordinary enough. Prominent Catholics, two former prime ministers, and the usual army of right-wing commentators launched defences of Pell, as well as attacks on a Victorian County Court jury's unanimous finding of Pell's guilt. There were charges that Pell had been claimed by trumped-up charges, and by a campaign of vilification. Conservatives are supposed to be champions of the rule of law. Not this time. There was more of the same this week. More incredulity, with even greater despair. When the Court of Appeal's decision was announced on Wednesday, Herald Suncommentator Andrew Bolt instantaneously declared he was “appalled”. His News Corp colleague Miranda Devine denounced a “conviction by zeitgeist”. The reality of an upheld conviction seemed to disorient others. Asked in an interview if he still believed in Pell's protestations of innocence, Melbourne Catholic archbishop Peter Comensoli said that he did. Then he added that he also believed the victim who accused Pell of abusing him: “I believe both.” One thing has become clearer. Within conservative Australia, particularly sections of our media, ideological tribalism prevails. Everything, it seems, is driven by the culture war. It's the culture war that explains why much media coverage of Pell’s case has cast him as the real victim. For example, on Thursday, Devine declared that Pell had been “crucified for the past sins of the Catholic Church”. In a letter he apparently wrote to supporters from prison this month, the cardinal also seemed to embrace the status of a martyr. He reportedly wrote: “The knowledge that my small suffering can be used for good purposes through being joined to Jesus' suffering gives me purpose and direction.” We see here a twisted inversion of victimhood. The perpetrator is now the victim. This is no accident. Rather, it's an expression of an ideological mutation of Australian conservatism. Those on the conservative side of politics like to bemoan left-wing identity politics for its supposed creation of a culture of victimhood. They argue that society now has a new moral hierarchy, in which the most virtuous are those who’ve been oppressed because of their race, gender and sexuality. Conservatives believe we’re now governed by the tyranny of minorities I don’t find this account convincing. In Australia, at least, if there’s a problem with a victimhood culture, it exists on the right of politics, not the left. When conservatives talk about the perils of victimhood, it looks and sounds a lot like psychological projection. Think of the cultural grievances that now dominate conservative politics. The complaints about people of faith being persecuted by secular progressives. The attacks against anti-racism on the grounds that it’s a form of racism directed at whites. The resentment against feminism’s emasculation of men. The anxieties about LGBTIQ people threatening the innocence of children. The cultural politics of conservatism is now racialised and gendered. It’s pitched in the language of disadvantage and disempowerment. It is, in other words, everything that conservatives like to denounce. Of course, it’s hard to believe conservatives are the real victims in all this. But they have elevated their imagined suffering above the suffering of the real victims. In Pell’s case, the surviving victim himself, known only as “J”, has been rendered invisible and silent within much of the debate. His voice, though, was heard this week. In a statement released by his lawyer, J noted that Pell had enjoyed “every opportunity to challenge the charges and every opportunity to be heard”. J hoped “it is all over now”. This may yet prove premature. Certainly the response of Pell’s supporters should leave us feeling troubled. Our society’s functioning depends, in part, on our collective temper and spirit as citizens. It depends on us accepting the rule of law, whether we may like the results or not. Our institutions can’t survive if substantial factions of our society treat law courts with moral contempt. The response this week by some conservatives does make you wonder. Will some only accept the rule of law when they win? What will happen the next time the result doesn’t go their way? And what does that mean for the rest of us? Tim Soutphommasane is a political theorist and professor at the University of Sydney. |
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31290 |
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My opinion of the Pell case has nothing to do with Pell, Professor Tim. You could substitute anybody into the same scenario and my opinion would be the same. If there is no reasonable doubt in this case there is no reasonable doubt in Australian criminal law any more.
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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I saw those and tried to buy you a pair - not available to "centrists" - you must produce your current ALP/Greens Membership card and a glass of sweet sweet Leftard tears ...
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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The "usual suspects" don't rely on "accurate" anything Tlaz ... they just go "RRRREEEEE!!!!".
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Tlazolteotl
Champion Joined: 02 Oct 2012 Location: Elephant Butte Status: Offline Points: 31290 |
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Actually Tontonan did present some interesting facts which call into question the accuracy of the psychologist's article. Or is he not one of the usual suspects?
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An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron |
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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You could go on, but you would just sound even sillier. You do know that not every pedo qualifies for be a priest or a brother ... How many Catholic Clergy were fortunate enough to score a ticket on the Lolita Express? Wipe the blood from your eyes rusty and stop making up statistics that you have no idea about ... you are sounding like Whale.
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Passing Through
Champion Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Location: At home Status: Offline Points: 79533 |
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When does all the redacted Pell material from the Royal Commission get released? After the High Court appeal, if there is one?
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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There it is ... another non answer by one of the unhinged Christophobes. You can't just scream "drivel" without giving a reason Whale! So, still no source for your irrational claim that Graeme Curran was anything more than a predatory pedophile, and was in fact "a devout Christian Catholic" ... was that just a lie to smear the church? ... goodness, you had no credibility to start with!
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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Time to deflect PT? ... I think so!
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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No, he's not actually ... but you know that.
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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... or scouts, or kids sports coaches, or school teachers, or the trusted friend/relative who babysits ... the left wing media and the Victorian Police don't seem as zealous about flushing out those victims.
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Passing Through
Champion Joined: 09 Jan 2013 Location: At home Status: Offline Points: 79533 |
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Not a deflection. I will wait till after your post frenzy and ask again.
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Dr E
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It's very dangerous to follow the media and the Christophobes and ignore the issue is far more prevalent, entrenched and wider than the Catholic Preist problem that they make out.
The time, effort, money and resources spent to have Pell convicted as a kiddy fiddler will do nothing more than massage a few atheist egos - everyone knows the problem within the church, and it is being addressed ... whilst a whole cohort of offenders are largely ignored.
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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rusty nails
Champion Joined: 20 Mar 2013 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 11301 |
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Oh dear, Stop posting and wait for the kids to explain it to you. Nowhere do I state that only Catholic clergy are paedophiles. Whataboutism is merely ant attempt to shift the focus, not an argument for anything. If you could comprehend my post,you would realise the “my statistics” are direct quotes from the piece I’m disparaging as biased drivel. |
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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So, as I said, this is no more than a witch hunt for you Christophobes ... no real interest in the Atheist Kiddy Fiddlers being brought to justice? ... you do understand that that statistically, there are likely to be far more of them? ... but that's just Left Wing Virtue Signalling 101, isn't it! ... "RRRRREEEEEE!!!!"
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Dr E
Champion Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 28563 |
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Your posts are incomprehensible.
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In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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rusty nails
Champion Joined: 20 Mar 2013 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 11301 |
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Being addressed? The current Melbourne archbishop is stating that another cardinal operating out of Melbourne at the same time as Pell was undoubtedly a kiddie fiddler. Doesn’t name him, hasn’t passed his allegations to the Police for action. Just wants George out of the boob..... Seriously, how can anyone support these morally bankrupt criminals |
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Passing Through
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The Australian royal commission into the institutional responses to child sexual abuse
StatisticsSome statistics published by the royal commission vary slightly. These are sourced from the final information update.
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45319 |
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Only for someone with the intellectual ability of a seven year old, or you, or both.
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