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Why are Australian bred stayers slow? |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25066 |
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Posted: 10 Nov 2018 at 4:27pm |
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One could say he got the best our of So You Think before O'Brien a great trainer learnt to change his style. That was well into Barts senior years so I'd say he'd still be kicking goals with the right horses.
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8659 |
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Why do yo say that? Explain your answer in writing. |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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SkyDancer
Champion Joined: 02 Aug 2014 Location: Cranbourne Status: Offline Points: 8428 |
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Would be lucky to train a winner at Newcastle |
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8659 |
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Just a question to everyone...
How would Bart Cummings go in this day and age in terms of the Cauldield and Melbourne Cups? Would he struggle like our trainers are no due to thelarge amount of ovwrseas trained horses running in these races? |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Baguette
Champion Joined: 18 Dec 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3651 |
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I see exactly where your coming from Furious but honestly the people you have to convince are the ones who pay the bills and that's the owners. It seems to me that the rise of huge stud deals has coincided with the rise of syndication, whether it's the big Syndication Company's or trainers buying horses to syndicate amongst their clients . They'll tell you that it's easier to sell shares in an early maturing sprinting type than one that needs a bit of time. And as they dominate that middle range at the yearling sales they have a huge impact on the type of horse bred. These Melbourne Cup winning stallions are beautiful horses but they can't produce top class racehorses on their own . They need the good broodmares to be put to them , but they're all going to Snitzel or the latest Gokden Slipper winner. It's all financial and supply and demand.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25066 |
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Maybe they could think outside the square (as in the two mountains in Sydney) and have a two year old race for sires who have won above 2400m in the Autumn at 2000m. Then a three year old equivilent in the spring etc over 2400m. Have a few lead ups to gain entry as in the Country races leading to Sydney in the Autumn. Give some glory to the stayers other than just the Cups or Classics. Bring them back out to the people. Would have to have good funding behind it to get anywhere but boy studs with Fiorente or American or their like would be rubbing there hands in delight. Give these stallions something to work with.
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Baguette
Champion Joined: 18 Dec 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3651 |
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I think the bottom line is back in the old days the only way for owners to make good money with their colts was to win stake money. And the big stake money was in the longer races , Cox Plate Caulfield Cup Melbourne Cup or even the big mile races. You could expect a good stud deal if your horse won good races but the amount of money studs were prepared to pay wasn't anywhere near what they are today and didn't trump potential prize money necessarily. Stallions at stud weren't the walking money machines they are today. So naturally yearling buyers back then were looking for horses who could get over ground. These days a colt wins the Golden Slipper and he's worth 20 million at least , much more than he ever could win on the track. So obviously early maturing sprinters are what the buyers want. Our racing has evolved and changed . There's not a great deal the racing clubs can do about it. You can put all the staying races on you want but I doubt it will change the basic problem that people just don't want to buy staying types these days.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25066 |
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Ok another thing. Race clubs don't understand anything on the horse side. Mostly interesting in the betting side. Now you have a young stayer. Not ready for open class. Not ready for stakes class. But where do you run it! Very few two or three year old races open to these style of horses! They do occasionally try something with the older brigade but even those don't last long. Due to small fields with little betting turnover. But if the races were set up it would take at least three years for even the two year olds to turn up in numbers. People are breeding for speed due to that being pretty well all the racing we have. In England they have a two year old race for sires who won stakes over 10f! Can you imagine the outcry in Australia. Unless you stood one of the Melbourne Cup winners or a Cpx Plate winner etc. What's wrong with thinking outside the box. We have followed Europe in ratings but they mostly race to SW and WFA. It's the USA who race with handicaps. That is causing issues with weighting of horses coming in from Europe also.
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Carioca
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That's because some had leg problems or bled, fwiw |
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furious
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Star Kingdom served about 40 at the most each year. Even Marscay never saw the big crops - he was at the tail end of the previous practice I guess.
Today you do have good stallions who just can't get big crops and the studs don't hold on to them for long. Pity after they have been sold to Thailand or somewhere in Asia up comes that very good G1 winner. We've seen some first season sires serving over 100 G1 style mares. Winners of G1, dams of G1 winners etc. Yet these stallions don't always make it. We have seen plenty of our Oaks or staying bred fillies or even our spring mares sent overseas and then produce G1 winners who have Classics, Cups and even a World Cup to their names. The class is already here folks we just are not working right. Whether that is because of training are the courses they run on. I don't know! For every right there seems to be a wrong. Many here disliked the style of Smith - it broke down horses. Yet he could train them to sprint or stay and had two of the greatest in his era. Cummings won plenty of Golden Slippers or two year old races. Patient he may of been but if they were ready he raced them! Are our trainers going gentle because of the social media? There are some clean winded horses who race best fresh. Kingston Town being one of them. Probably the injury as a 3yo kept him racing as Tommy couldn't train him hard. But have we lost that breed of horse. Or are we just consistently underweighting the runners from overseas. Three open age G1's and 57.5 and no rehandicap after the Caulfield Cup just wouldn't happen with an Australian horse. He gave 2.5 kilos to Ace High who had two three year old G1's too his name. So Ace High had to carry 4 kilos more than the winner without a G1 open race to his name. The winner a colt had 1/2 kilo less than Younstar with her one 3yo G1 win. Colt-filly. We call 4yo's horses and mares. Overseas they are still colts and fillies. Still unseasoned and treated that way. So yes we aren't getting ours in and weighting the overseas runners more won't help with that but just saying that sometimes other things matter also in a handicap.
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goldey
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True call , vets are after ae close to 50mm Folicle , they inject the mare to help sometimes
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djebel
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He was one of a very few but Angus Armanasco had a lot of colts go to stud after short careers. Bletchingly was one. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Baguette
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Tlazolteotl
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I can't remember colts winning one race then being worth megabucks back in the day. Are potential sires worth relatively worth these days than they were back in the 70s and 80s? Is that related to a sire serving more mares these days? When did the 200 mares per season sire deal start up? But if the increased sire value is a function of more service fees per season, won't there be a corresponding limiting factor- the number of mares and mare owner willing to pay big bucks for a service? Don't mind me. I'm just thinking out loud.
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goldey
Champion Joined: 29 Dec 2012 Location: cairns Status: Offline Points: 5920 |
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Who cares if overseas horses are winning , its good , hopefully puts the blow torch to the breeding industry to change which i assume with the money lovers running the big studs and the horse lovers running the smaller studs , no change in the immediate future , ao we need to get used yo the current situation of international exposure and domestic unrest .
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JudgeHolden
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Lol. Our two big Spring mile races were just won by imports- who themselves would be panels off the best from overseas, I’d imagine. |
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furious
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Maccamax we bred more each year than England, Ireland and France together. We have more flat races than England Ireland and France. THey have a jumping group also in the numbers bred so we are way in front on that count. We do have stayers in our midst. Not every stayer has to be at home waiting for their three year old career. Racing as a two year old has been proven to be beneficial. But while these types in Europe (and obviously Japan) race out over 1600 to 2200m possibly even further. We treat them with kid gloves and have a few 1600m and maybe one or two others. These races are available to the stayers overseas most weeks from July on in their two year old year. Some have small fields some don't.
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maccamax
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Could our breeding numbers each year be far less than the UK & Europe .
I think we own the best to 2000m. |
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Isaac soloman
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I know, when i did the sums i thought what an earner!
I will find out more.
but in the meantime perhaps the Mistable site can explain. |
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Carioca
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And you won't either , they have a varied diet, some may spell and be put on the o/s market as well. |
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Speediskey
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goldey
Champion Joined: 29 Dec 2012 Location: cairns Status: Offline Points: 5920 |
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Is this lease hold or free hold , if free hold maybe the costing is to also pay off the initial cost of the of the horse and pretraining etc . |
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goldey
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Pretty sure its maybe the Hopeful Stakes in December is a 2000m Group 1 for colts only , shows we are a bit behind the eight ball as the middle distance compared to Jpan , mind you not sure of their attrition rate of their young horses . |
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Speediskey
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Isn't there already far more money in middle-long distance three year old racing than sprint 2/3yo racing in Australia? Cursory glance the Group 1's 2-3yo Sprint G1's (Throw in Millions and new Easter race) Blue Diamond Golden Slipper Sires Produce Magic Million Inglis Millenium Coolmore 2-3yo Middle-Long Distance G1's Champagne Stakes JJ Atkins Caulfield Guineas Flight Stakes Thousand Guineas VRC Derby Randwick Guineas Vinery Rosehill Guineas ATC Derby ATC Oaks QLD Derby QLD Oaks SA Oaks SA Derby May have forgotten some from either list. |
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Speediskey
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That's 90 grand a year in fees. Something like 250 a day for the horse. The horse (before purchase price is taken into account) has to win two metro races every year, and he'll just lose money at that.
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45319 |
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Well you'd certainly hope so. Spelling at Euroa is apparently @ $35/day plus GST.
Though Tommy Smith never had a horse in the paddock if his bills were any indication.
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goldey
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Is $7500 a month for when the horse is in work and spelling , if spelling do they change the costing .
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Isaac soloman
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At $15 a month its not going to break the bank.
And you wont be under pressure to get a return. Almost an expectation of no return, but just fun.
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Second Chance
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I'm with Isaac re syndication. The more that can enjoy the experience the better.
A ballot re owner access is necessary with huge syndicates and many will necessarily miss out That said, while owners tickets are fine, they're rather over-rated. Access to the mounting yard is no big deal unless it's important for you to rubbing shoulders with other "in-crowders", whilst the owners bar is frequently extremely crowded, megablast loud, and expensive. Tomorrow at headquarters for example. ps we bred and sold one going around in a stakes race at Flemington tomorrow. We'll pay the entry fee and be restricted to the public area but will totally enjoy the day, chat with connections in the birdcage, and fully embrace the experience. Just as minor members of mega syndicates can too. |
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Isaac soloman
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Wouldnt you like to have the photography business, and the winners photos.
The flow on from this is amazing.
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