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2 x 3 duplications |
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Mr Prospector
Champion Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Status: Offline Points: 2025 |
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O&R The book doesn't give a clearer explanation but convention would say 2x3 is definitely inbred and even 3x3 or 3x4 is often classified as inbreeding . If you can get a hold of a copy of Genetic Heritage by Ken McLean even though some of the info on genetics may be outdated it is a great starting point IMHO .
The point of the post is to highlight that you need as faultless as possible in your stock when doing close matings otherwise you will have plenty of failures . |
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bradjm
Champion Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 6175 |
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Would you consider an mare who had shocking front legs and was unraced because of them to be carrying a fault ?
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JoH
Champion Joined: 15 Oct 2009 Location: Whittlesea, Vic Status: Offline Points: 1781 |
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Mr P: The point of the post is to highlight that you need as faultless as possible in your stock when doing close matings otherwise you will have plenty of failures .
Couldn't agree more. Any very closely bred mating is IMO a "very" mating. Whatever the trait, ability, conformation feature I am wanting to consolidate or accentuate the closer the cross the greater the possibility the outcome will be very ... very good or very bad. It also follows, or it should follow that the breeder accept responsibility for that outcome. Bradjm: Would you consider an (sic) mare who had shocking front legs and was unraced because of them to be carrying a fault ? Shocking as in scarred or shocking as in bench knees, off-set cannons etc ... hard to say without seeing her or knowing if they were the reason she never raced. There are lots of reasons why a mare doesn't make it to the track but not all of them will / should impact her usefulness as a broodmare. One of the best looking and interesting (on paper) horses I have bred was going great guns in her first prep - came home for a spell and somehow managed to nearly slice her off knee and did an 'outstanding' (not) job on ligaments etc. She never raced, one leg doesn't look too flash but her broodmare potential is unchanged. Also if your mare was born with those wonky pins do you know where in her pedigree they are likely to have come from? If you do and the fault isn't too horrible you might (I say might) be able to choose a stallion that breeds away from that line. |
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suck it up ... Life isn't run at w.f.a. :)
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Off and racing
Champion Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Location: Queensland Status: Offline Points: 1093 |
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Thanks Mr P and JoH makes sense, your amplifying certain genetics by doubling them up in basic terms hence your "very" comment. Could need a bit of luck if your doing it to get the right traits coming thru
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Nostradamus II
Champion Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Location: Sunshine Coast Status: Offline Points: 2621 |
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bradjm
Champion Joined: 13 Mar 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 6175 |
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Joh
Not sure on exact faults but stud told me she was born with the worst legs you would ever see and never got to track because of it. We bought her first two progeny both as correct as you'd ever see. |
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whitt0
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That's a tough call. Proves it is a bit of a lottery. I suspect though, if they are wonky there is a greater probability they will come out like that.
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djebel
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I would love to see this years Oaks winner bred to this years Derby winner. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Mr Prospector
Champion Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Status: Offline Points: 2025 |
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It is interesting that Australia and Taghrooda are bred on such a similar pattern , if you had a Cape Cross mare it might be a good pointer as to future mating . There is an article in the new Bluebloods mag about Australia and how he is from the family of Kingston Town .
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djebel
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Gradisca being the common thread. Its also the family of the talented Tres Blue, Phebe being the link.
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reductio ad absurdum
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Off and racing
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Could you imagine the potential price tag on that foal. Now that would break some records
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Ticino
Champion Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 4432 |
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Hello,
in this thread (2x3 duplications) "Djebel" mentioned Tres Blue, The first 2x3 Duplication in his ped I noticed was Orsini (2x3 Athanasius, German Derby Winner and 5times Champion Sire in Germany. So I went further through his ped and found severalo Thorughbreds with this Close inbreeding. Ksar 2x3 Omnium (Tourbillon) Wellingtonia 2x3 Pocahontas (Omnium) Le Volcan 2x3 Durban (Reliance) Blood Red 2x3 Ellen Horne (Chulo) Flying Fox 2x3 Galopin (Alchimist) Red Flag 2x3 Ellen Horne(Olymp - Pazman) Regards, Ticino |
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Blacktypepedigree
Champion Joined: 06 Nov 2013 Location: Czech republic Status: Offline Points: 763 |
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There are black-type winners inbred 2x3 to Danehill:
http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Guelph_AUS-5545 http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Mango_Diva_GB-151986 http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Leitir_Mor_IRE-106488 http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Florentina_AUS-179072 (also inbred 3x3 to Dancing Show) http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Paene_Magnus_IRE-360381 http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Eagle_Island_AUS-202569 |
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whitt0
Champion Joined: 01 Jun 2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 10911 |
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Cheers blacktype.
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goldey
Champion Joined: 29 Dec 2012 Location: cairns Status: Offline Points: 5920 |
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What's the percentage stat on that Black Type, ie how many in total have been bred on that cross ?
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linghi11
Champion Joined: 18 Apr 2013 Status: Offline Points: 7452 |
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Does anyone know how 3 x 3 Kingmambo goes?
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to the victor
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Hazyview
Yearling Joined: 16 Jan 2014 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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Arion has 9 winners from 20 runners, all in Japan, for 3x3 along sire line. Obviously there are other 3x3 patterns, but this probably most common type. Overall Kingmambo inbreeding (all types, so inc 3x4 etc) the stats are 40 winners 80 runners from 116 named foals and just one stakes placed horse called Amazing Lips in France. She's 3x4.
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linghi11
Champion Joined: 18 Apr 2013 Status: Offline Points: 7452 |
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Great! thank you Hazyview
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to the victor
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Take2
Champion Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5191 |
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back when i haunted the village regularly i bred a colt by a son of danehill out of a mare by danehills bro eagle eyed the mare was a granddaughter of danzigs sister dame margot so, had a triple of pas de nom in 4 to go along with, perfect conformation, ability? never proven, got killed in a paddock accident
definately do it again with the right mare and stallion, looking around for a similar chance doesnt matter what philosophy one subscribes to in breeding, sound well conformed stock is the key
Edited by take2 - 30 Sep 2018 at 4:03pm |
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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol
www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au |
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Take2
Champion Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5191 |
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big duke, a cup runner 3x3 kingmambo
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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol
www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au |
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GAJ
Champion Joined: 13 Apr 2011 Location: Alstonville,NSW Status: Offline Points: 4410 |
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Take 2, I think I remember you posting a picture of him and was lovely, how sad you lost him, I know the feeling. Statue of David - not sure how to post his pedigree?? 2x3 Savannah Success etc.. |
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Gay3
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Ticino
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Hello,
I'm not sure whether I have already mentioned Adler (=Eagle), he is bred 2x3 Aiyana (female inbreeding!), she is a FS of Alya, from Alveole Family. For your info he will run next Sunday at the "Silbernes Pferd", Group 3, 3000 meter at Hoppegarten (near Berlin). So far I know was placed in the "Union Rennen" and other betterclass races/Handicaps. regards, Ticino
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25067 |
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I wish you good luck as that's a Juliet line mare. That said I wouldn't be game to breed so close. As you say need good conformation etc but still nine times out of ten it wouldn't work. There was a very good stud in South Africa which stood a son of Carbine. He was a Champion sire and then all they wanted to do was inbreed to him. It finished the stud. So always be careful going that close.
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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brogers
Champion Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Location: Lexington, KY Status: Offline Points: 1106 |
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Possibly worth reading this as it relates to inbreeding
"135,572 Thoroughbred horses revealed a strong negative relationship between Wright’s inbreeding coefficient, F, and five measures of racing performance that encompass a range of factors that contribute to exercise performance." "The negative relationship between F and performance can be explained by a genetic load of partially deleterious alleles still being carried by the population." "In contrast with the results from Wright’s inbreeding coefficient, the ancestral history coefficient, AHC, showed a strong positive association with racing performance" "This statistic, described by Baumung, et al, counts the number of times that an allele has been IBD in an individual’s pedigree, thus providing a comprehensive reflection of selection for favourable traits over time. The AHC statistic is based on the assumption that an allele that has been IBD multiple times in an individual’s pedigree is likely to have a neutral or positive effect on fitness. In contrast, an allele that is IBD for the first time is more likely to have a negative effect on fitness. Therefore, individuals with higher AHC are more likely to contain larger proportions of alleles in their genomes that have been positively selected over many generations." ----- The two calculations are done differently and speak to different things. The COI speaks to general inbreeding in the pedigree with the understanding that horses that have a higher inbreeding coefficient tend to be less effective as runners. This is balanced by the opposite with the Ancestry coefficient. The higher AHC represents the fact that when considering mendelian segregation, more ancestors end up identical by descent, that is they are inherited from both the sire and dam in the subject horse. To give an example..... Think about the 8 grandparents of two foals and lets say that in both foals there are 8 strains of Mr Prospector. They would have the same level of inbreeding to Mr Prospector because they both had the 8 strains. In the first foal, 4 of these strains appear in the direct great-grandsire and four appear in the direct great-granddam In the second foal, each of the 8 grandparents have 1 strain of Mr Prospector. In the first foal, the chances of Mr Prospector being inherited by the foal is quite low as while the direct grandsire has 4 strains, he can only pass one on to his son (the grandsire) and it is only a 50/50 chance of inheriting. Equally the great granddam, while having 4 strains can only pass one on, with a 50/50 chance. So for the next two generations, Mr Prospector on the top and bottom of that foals pedigree has to compete to survive and if you simulate the mating numbers of times you can work out exactly the chance that Mr Prospector survives from the great-grandsire and from the great-granddam to both appear in the foal. It is quite a low chance so the Ancestry Coefficient of a foal bred this way is low. In the second foal he has 8 strains of Mr Prospector but one appears in every great-grandparent. As these great grandparents have a 50/50 chance of passing them on, it is much more likely that at least 4 of the grandparents will have Mr Prospector and thus the probability of the foal having Mr Prospector from both the sire and dam are much higher. It will have a much higher AHC. So when you see close inbreeding working, it is most likely that the ancestry that is both behind what is being inbred to, but also appearing in parts of the pedigree that are not inbred to, are similar. It is probably why inbreeding to Danehill, an inbred horse himself, hasnt been as successful as expected as the close inbreeding (a negative) is outweighing the positives in the background ancestry.
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Abel Tasman...Keen Ice...Divisidero....Verrazano...Catchy...Carrick...Ivictory...
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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$725,000
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reductio ad absurdum
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25067 |
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She does have a nice photo Djebel (I've even got a tick next to her for looks) but that doesn't make that it always works. I didn't look too hard at her pedigree as I'd marked her to see what she bought. Obviously way over the price I be following her at!
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Ticino
Champion Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 4432 |
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Hello,
during the last days I saw some more horses with a 2x3 inbreeding: Miss France 2x3 Asterus and her dam Nafah is 2x3 Zariba (Dubawi) Amora 2x3 Tourbillon (Love In, Lomitas) Just to make things even more interesting, all mentioned broodmares belong to same damline A more contemporary German example: Alandia 2x3 Surumu dam of Altano, Araldo, Araldo Junior according pedquery 2 of her offspring were send to AUS, unfortunalety one of them met with a sad fate at the "Melbourne Cup". regards from Germany, Ticino Astana 2x3 Tourbillon (Dalalakhani)
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Ticino
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Hello,
a New Sire stands in Germany 2019. His name is Wild Chief (by Doyen) and his dam is bred 2x3 Surumu. regards, Ticino
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