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Inbreeding to Danehill

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    Posted: 26 Oct 2021 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

This discussion will help, in particular this post & haven't read further:

The report on inbreeding to Danehill (foaled in 1986) reads like this.

Sex

Named
Foals

Rnrs

Runs

Wnrs

Wnrs/
Rnrs

Wins

GW

G1W

SW

 

 

Colts

1287

882

10370

427

48.4%

1066

4

2

14

 

 

Fillies

1238

795

7754

324

40.8%

730

12

1

23

 

 

Total

2525

1677

18124

751

44.8%

1796

16

3

37

 

 

Danehill as a stallion SW to runners = 16.7%

Danehill inbreeding -SW to named foals= 1.4%

Danehill inbreeding -SW to runners = 2.2%

Savabeel (leading NZ sire) SW to runners= 9.4%

Street Cry (leading Aus sire) SW to runners= 8.0%

My theory on nicks is that a certain type of stallion ( horse size and shape, speed, balance, lung capacity, ability) compliment a certain type of mare (horse size and shape, speed, balance, lung capacity, ability). 

Breed an athlete.



http://racecafe.co.nz/forums/index.php?/topic/49785-inbreeding-to-danehill/
do we have an update now 4 or so years later ? I Would be interested to know how 4 x 4 goes too. Cheers Slowdown.
Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 11:37pm
Cheers Rem...…..
Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rem286 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 11:34pm
Sex balanced still appears to go ok.  I think 3M x 3M is the one that was looking bad although you still see them sell ok.  I think once you get back to 4th generation its ok.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 10:47pm
from memory last I read was that the sexbalanced Danehill cross was working best. are there any updates since ? Cheers Slowdown
Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2017 at 8:38pm
It's way to early to say it works or it doesn't.

First we have to look at the grandsons 

Stratum has stakes winners Southern Lord and Battle Hero

Choisir has The Mission and Psychologist

Sebring has Scratchy Bottom, Kiss a Rose, Broadband, Ulmann, Seannie

Not a Single Doubt has Selenia, Single Bullet, Gunnison

Snitzel has Sweet Redemption

Smart Missile  has Debellatio

Star Witness has Mella Maria G2 in South Africa and Pearl Star

Teofilo has Brazuca G2 in South Africa, Paene Magnus, Loritania etc.

Sepoy has the best with Alizee 

While Danehill's son Exceed and Excel had the great filly Guelph interestingly from the same female line as Sepoy sire of the other best on in Alizee.

Now is that close cross working because of some affinity of the female line to Danehill?  Or do we blame Danehill for the class.  There is no way of being sure.

The above figure of inbreeding to Danehil of 1.4% would be over many lines including ones where close inbreeding wouldn't work.  So we are only with the grandsons even getting to the third generation of for inbreeding so some of the above were very closely possibly 2 x 2.  Something which is obviously not working.  For every Guelph 2 x 3 to Danehill you will get 100 that wouldn't work.  3 x 3 is more reasonable. 4 x 4 is better.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2017 at 7:20pm
And this from our own Swynford, shows there's much more too it than simply double Danehill!

http://championsbydesign.com.au/consultancy-services/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2017 at 7:16pm
This discussion will help, in particular this post & haven't read further:

The report on inbreeding to Danehill (foaled in 1986) reads like this.

Sex

Named
Foals

Rnrs

Runs

Wnrs

Wnrs/
Rnrs

Wins

GW

G1W

SW

 

 

Colts

1287

882

10370

427

48.4%

1066

4

2

14

 

 

Fillies

1238

795

7754

324

40.8%

730

12

1

23

 

 

Total

2525

1677

18124

751

44.8%

1796

16

3

37

 

 

Danehill as a stallion SW to runners = 16.7%

Danehill inbreeding -SW to named foals= 1.4%

Danehill inbreeding -SW to runners = 2.2%

Savabeel (leading NZ sire) SW to runners= 9.4%

Street Cry (leading Aus sire) SW to runners= 8.0%

My theory on nicks is that a certain type of stallion ( horse size and shape, speed, balance, lung capacity, ability) compliment a certain type of mare (horse size and shape, speed, balance, lung capacity, ability). 

Breed an athlete.



http://racecafe.co.nz/forums/index.php?/topic/49785-inbreeding-to-danehill/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mc41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2017 at 4:02pm
Are there any stats to say this duplication works or not ? Colts Or fillies
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Swynford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 8:18am
Second highest rated two year old in Europe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 5:02pm
Two of those Choisir SWs mentioned above are Luger & Psychologist, out of the Danzero mare Miss Conception.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 2:52pm
Unlikely Pin Up Boy
Tara Madgwick - Thursday, 20 April 2017
When Guelph won the Group I ATC Champagne Stakes in 2013, horses bred with a double cross of legendary sire Danehill had found their pin-up girl, but it's taken four more years for a pin-up boy to emerge.

The Mission

The Mission

That horse is Paul Perry's headstrong colt The Mission, who led and dominated from the front to win the Group I ATC Champagne Stakes at Randwick last Saturday.

By Choisir from a daughter of Redoute's Choice, The Mission is the fourth Group I winner to carry the double cross and is only the second in Australia after Guelph.

Current statistics for the double Danehill courtesy of Arion show 46.7% winners to runners (1221 winners from 2614 starters) with 57 stakes-winners.

Among those stakes-winners are current season two year-olds Gunnison, Single Bullet, Debellatio, Ducimus, Pateena Arena, Seannie and of course The Mission.

The Mission is an interesting pin-up boy for a number of reasons starting with his pedigree.

Choisir

Choisir

The double Danehill configuration comes in many different patterns, but 3 x 3 in the male line pattern like The Mission has until now thought to be one of the least successful.

In his favour may well be Choisir.

When you run a report for the double Danehill cross, but look at only those involving Choisir the statistics improve markedly.

We find 51.3 % winners to runners with eight stakes-winners making for 4% stakes-winners to runners which is double what we find when just looking at the straight double Danehill.

Another factor making The Mission a somewhat unexpected star is his purchase price and yearling picture, neither would suggest star in the making!

The Mission as a yearling - a work in progress

The Mission as a yearling - a work in progress

Consigned to the Magic Millions by Edinglassie Stud, The Mission was only good enough for Book Two and was picked up by Paul Perry for just $32,500 making him the cheapest colt by Choisir sold at the Gold Coast in 2016.

As you can see in his yearling picture, The Mission was a work in progress and it's a credit to Paul Perry that he saw the diamond in the rough.

Young thoroughbreds go through growth spurts at various stages of their development and it's fair to day The Mission was not seen at his best last January.

Given his pedigree (the iffy double Danehill) and his type (work in progress), it's no wonder that this Group I winner was picked up cheaply and has now won over $400,000.
Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 10:25am
Well Choisir and Redoute's Choice are very close in genetic make up.  They have more than just the Danehill cross.  He is the first winner from 8 foals and 6 starters from 6 different mares - according to equineline.

It could be that there are no other close crosses other than the Danehill 3 x 3.  Some of the others may have had other lines of Biscay or Lunchtime or even more Danehill blood.

This is close to close Danehill/Lunchtime/Biscay (the big three) in both but Lunchtime and Biscay are off in the 6th line in the mare My Amelia.  If you had say a second dam by Snippets or Canny Lad (and alot of Canny Lad mares went to Redoute's Choice) you would have a far busier pedigree and that could create troubles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 2:09am
Originally posted by Red Hare Red Hare wrote:

He can't be the first foal bred on the Choisir/Redoute's Choice cross (surely?)

The free wiki-style info at Pedigreequery shows a grand total of three runners, The Mission included, from (at a guess) 10 years worth of opportunity. There must be more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 1:50am
Champagne Stakes winner, The Mission is another one for the 'second pattern' file... but which one is the second?

He can't be the first foal bred on the Choisir/Redoute's Choice cross (surely?). So, if the reflective patterns in Great Selection and Canny Lad aren't the key, is it as simple as Danehill on top with MTR in the bottom half? Thus making the Great Selection/Canny Lad nick the 'second pattern' and the Danehill duplication an added bonus?

Fair dinkum, the should've called him Nan's Veggie Soup. Everything in the pot, no idea which flavour is which.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 2:53pm
Skating, What a great matriarch.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 2:51pm
Still got the More than Ready/Flying Spur thing going only in reverse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 11:49am
A very nice looking horse,  they can be worth a lot of money,
I know its only 'in the bush' but is this the first winner by All Too Hard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 4:50pm
When that colt retires to stud and serves mares inbred for Danehill the results will be dynamite. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 4:39pm
Along with thousands of others LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 4:15pm
No, But there are about 9 strains of Natalma.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 4:05pm
No "not quite" about it, she's not inbred to Danehill Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Not quite inbreeding to Danehill but still - 

SUMMER PASSAGE (AUS)Bay colt 2014 
Snitzel
Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
Snippets' Lass
Bay 1993
Snippets
Bay 1984
Lunchtime
Chestnut 1970
Silly Season
Great Occasion
1962
1965
1-g
7-f
Easy Date
Bay 1977
Grand Chaudiere
Scampering
1968
1970
19-b
20-a
Snow Finch
Bay 1984
Storm Bird
Bay 1978
Northern Dancer
South Ocean
1961
1967
2-d
4-j
A Realgirl
Bay 1976
In Reality
Secret Verdict
1964
1966
21-a
2-c
Subsequent
Bay 2008
Encosta de Lago
Bay 1993
Fairy King
Bay 1982
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Shoal Creek
Chestnut 1988
Star Way
Chestnut 1977
Star Appeal
New Way
1970
1970
5-d
6-e
Rolls
Chestnut 1984
Mr Prospector
Grand Luxe
1970
1974
13-c
4-g
Sequin
Bay 1997
Lure
Bay 1989
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Endear
Bay 1982
Alydar
Chappaquiddick
1975
1968
9-c
3-o
Subterfuge
Brown 1993
Machiavellian
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Coup de Folie
1970
1982
13-c
2-d
Sandy Island
Bay 1981
Mill Reef
Sayonara
1968
1965
22-d
16-c
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m,5m x 4m,5m Danzig4m x 4m Mr Prospectorx 5f,5m


GROUP 1 WINNER.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 6:29am
When a second pattern is present like this I think the double of Danehill is a huge PLUS

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 8:00am
You never know Ticino Fiorente had 198 foals from his first crops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 9:28pm
Hello,
Summer Passage, carries Danehill and Machiavelian (Sire of his third dam), both Sires are related,
Coup de Folie is 3x3 Almahmoud, who is the dam of Natalma, too. Btw, from the same damline as "Northwest Passage".
 
The dam sire Encosta de Lago, his damsire Star Way traces via Star Appeal, surprise, surprise to Dark Ronald, via Son-in-Law. The only other male Strain of Dark Ronald extended I know so far outside Germany. Btw, Magpie was a Dark Ronald son exported to Australia.
 
Maybe you give a try to the Bahram male stirp of Blandford in Fiorente (by Monsun). In Europe he and his sons are still very sought after as outcross of all the ND male lines.
 
Best regards, Ticino
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 12:27pm
As I'm talking about the next breed shaper probably won't be ND tribe djebel.  They shape the world now.
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Not quite inbreeding to Danehill but still - 

SUMMER PASSAGE (AUS)Bay colt 2014 
Snitzel
Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
Snippets' Lass
Bay 1993
Snippets
Bay 1984
Lunchtime
Chestnut 1970
Silly Season
Great Occasion
1962
1965
1-g
7-f
Easy Date
Bay 1977
Grand Chaudiere
Scampering
1968
1970
19-b
20-a
Snow Finch
Bay 1984
Storm Bird
Bay 1978
Northern Dancer
South Ocean
1961
1967
2-d
4-j
A Realgirl
Bay 1976
In Reality
Secret Verdict
1964
1966
21-a
2-c
Subsequent
Bay 2008
Encosta de Lago
Bay 1993
Fairy King
Bay 1982
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Shoal Creek
Chestnut 1988
Star Way
Chestnut 1977
Star Appeal
New Way
1970
1970
5-d
6-e
Rolls
Chestnut 1984
Mr Prospector
Grand Luxe
1970
1974
13-c
4-g
Sequin
Bay 1997
Lure
Bay 1989
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Endear
Bay 1982
Alydar
Chappaquiddick
1975
1968
9-c
3-o
Subterfuge
Brown 1993
Machiavellian
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Coup de Folie
1970
1982
13-c
2-d
Sandy Island
Bay 1981
Mill Reef
Sayonara
1968
1965
22-d
16-c
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m,5m x 4m,5m Danzig4m x 4m Mr Prospectorx 5f,5m
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 12:14pm
SUMMER MONSOON (AUS)Bay colt 2014 
Stratum
Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
Bourgeois
Chestnut 1991
Luskin Star
Chestnut 1974
Kaoru Star
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Kaoru
1946
1955
1-g
31>
Promising
Chestnut 1968
Idomeneo
Modern Touch
1960
1963
2-i
2-e
Brave New World
Chestnut 1980
Vain
Chestnut 1966
Wilkes
Elated
1952
1957
13-c
A10
Undaunted
Bay or brown 1972
Le Cordonnier
Broadlea
1963
1956
2-n
4-n
Princess Narine
Bay 2006
Red Ransom
Bay 1987
Roberto
Bay 1969
Hail to Reason
Brown 1958
Turn-To
Nothirdchance
1951
1948
1-w
4-n
Bramalea
Bay or brown 1959
Nashua
Rarelea
1952
1949
3-m
12-c
Arabia
Bay 1977
Damascus
Bay 1964
Sword Dancer
Kerala
1956
1958
1-o
8-h
Christmas Wind
Bay 1967
Nearctic
Bally Free
1954
1960
14-c
6-b
Monsoon Wedding
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
 Ancestor duplications:Danehill3m x 3f Shantha's Choice3m x 3f
reductio ad absurdum
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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 11:42am
It will almost certainly be a sire from the Northern Dancer tribe, Or a much lesser chance from the Native Dancer tribe.

Almost a zero chance from any other tribe.

#SYT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 11:29am
While Redoute's and Fastnet have been great sires - they are not in the same class as their sire.  So as he was foaled in 1986 we are almost due the next great.  Hopefully sometime in the next 10 years.  There was forty years between Star Kingdom and Danehill.  They didn't cross in the sireline till back at Whalebone (GB) 1807.

So I'm expecting something not from the Northern Dancer line to surprise us.
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