Go to Villagebet.com.au for free horse racing tips - Click here now |
|
Black Caviar Looked Awful? |
Post Reply | Page <1 3456> |
Author | |||||
Discohips23
Champion Joined: 01 Mar 2018 Status: Offline Points: 963 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
|
|||||
Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45716 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
Well fwiw I see absolutely no reason why Moody would talk pork pies about such a matter.
|
|||||
therealkramer
Champion Joined: 12 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2026 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
3 reasons off the top of my head
1. She avoided carrying huge weights which would have enhanced her legacy. She also avoided serious challenges as her career wound down. 2.Her UK run was below par 3. The revelations that she ran almost her entire career on Altrenogest as well as in an era where steroids were not prohibited away from raceday |
|||||
JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11728 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
1) she carried a mares weight record to win a Newmarket ( in race record time) 2) umm... that’s the point 3) what’s your point here? All her competitors raced under the same rules |
|||||
Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45716 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Exactly Judge.
Almost not to mention the irrelevance of her treatments over time in respect of the core issue under debate here, ie the truth or otherwise of Moody's specific claim regarding legal pre-race treatments and more critically the alleged incompetency of a UK veterinarian in post-treatment bandaging.
|
|||||
therealkramer
Champion Joined: 12 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2026 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
It's not irrelevant when those treatments were forbidden in the UK-the site of her worst career performance. Coincidence? Where she sits in terms of worldwide greatness is probably more debated overseas than it is here. She dodged the chance to win a 2nd Newmarket with 61-61.5kg-which would have given us some gauge on her position against the likes of Vain, Berborough etc.
|
|||||
therealkramer
Champion Joined: 12 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2026 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
The revisionist history is not intended to enhance her record against those that she beat 25 times. It's meant to add weight to her record when compared to the all time greats. What weight did Berborough carry in the Newmarket? You see, the injury narrative gives her an out and attempts to leapfrog the deeds of past champions who didn't baulk in the face of adversity.
|
|||||
djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
She did not need to carry that sort of weight to be compared with those horses. She is up there with them. There is absolutely no point in pointing out handicap efforts without pointing out who such and such defeated. Vain was beaten twice wasn't he ? What were the excuses ? |
|||||
reductio ad absurdum
|
|||||
therealkramer
Champion Joined: 12 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2026 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
That's the whole point of handicapping though. To carry weight and defy the handicap is the mark of greatness.
|
|||||
djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
I have never agreed with this. How much weight do they have to carry in defeat to still retain their greatness ? |
|||||
reductio ad absurdum
|
|||||
therealkramer
Champion Joined: 12 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2026 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
It's open to interpretation. There are obvious variable because the handicap assumes each horse irt afforded the perfect run in transit. The fact remains, Black Caviar(58kg) beat Crystal Lilly(50kg) by 3L in the '11 Newmarket after trouncing her by 6L hard held-possibly 10L superior-in the Lightning. Could she have beaten Hay List in the '12 Newmarket if she'd carried 61.5kg and defied a 5.5kg swing at the weights after a 1.75L victory in the Lightning?
|
|||||
djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
Probably not. Hence it is crazy to have to achieve that to retain greatness.
No, She is an immortal of our sport and did not need to carry death defying weights to prove it.
|
|||||
reductio ad absurdum
|
|||||
therealkramer
Champion Joined: 12 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2026 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
I agreee. If she'd been beaten a short neck by Hay List and [ossibly even edged by Buffering, that wouldn't have lessened her greatness. She's still better than both those horses. They chose to avoid that possibilty and have to deal with the what ifs
|
|||||
Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45716 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
Unfortunately Kramer has always been a glass half empty contributor.
ps it's absolute nonsense to claim that her treatments in Oz would be banned in the UK, particularly given her knee treatment before the big race was entirely accepted over there.
|
|||||
Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51994 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
During the conversation, Terry Bailey was incredulous as to what issues are dealt with to keep these horses going & he then quoted Hawkes had told him very similar about Octagonal. There was no embellishment or chest beating, simply stating facts & what an amazing mare she was. I think the general public would be astonished by much of what occurs in racing stables, large & small.
|
|||||
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
|
|||||
TJMitchell
Champion Joined: 29 Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 16915 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
I hate the whole 'didn't carry the big weights' garbage.
Treve carried 58.5kg at most, superstar. Enable 58kg at most, superstar. Zenyatta, 58.5kg. Even the current BiTW Winx has only ever carried 57kg at most. None of these horses records are diminished cause they didn't lump 61kg in a handicap. |
|||||
djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
So far through the wonderful career of Winx a hair has not been out of place. It will be interesting to hear 5 years down the track if that was in fact the cace ? I know with Black Caviar she got a back injury in her Danehill victory however after that the only thing I remember was being told constantly that should there be any issue at all they would pull up stumps. I realise they have to keep mum due Stewards overreacting in Australia but they were insistent in the UK that all was fine and anything bad and she would not run. |
|||||
reductio ad absurdum
|
|||||
Einstein
Champion Joined: 21 Dec 2015 Status: Offline Points: 1290 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
|
|||||
Atreus
Champion Joined: 25 Nov 2014 Status: Offline Points: 329 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
If Moody had said Black Caviar had injury problems before the Ascot run then I would believe him now. But he did not say this instead he said the exact opposite. These are just excuses made up after the fact for her underwhelming Ascot performance Here is what Moody was saying before the Ascot run "She's the fittest I've had her in the past 24 months. Her work has
been very pleasing since arriving here. I couldn't be happier." |
|||||
JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11728 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
“Yeah I’m not particularly happy with her. I’m just trying to hold her together before her big assignment. But to be perfectly honest I think I’ve may have got this one wrong.” Said no trainer ever. |
|||||
acacia alba
Champion Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41479 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Well, no matter what Moody did or didnt do/say, or what weights came into it. You can never take away her record for being one tough sheila . She beat them fair and square.
|
|||||
animals before people.
|
|||||
rem286
Champion Joined: 17 Mar 2015 Status: Offline Points: 767 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
You may recall she required hoof filler toward the end of her Autumn campaign this year? I have it on good authority that not many other horses if any could have performed like she did with the damage to her hoof wall
|
|||||
therealkramer
Champion Joined: 12 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2026 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Your barely contained hated of me aside, there is nothing about glass half empty or glass half full. We were robbed of seeing exactly how good Black Caviar was. The weight doesn't stop the good ones winning the Newmarket. It was her fav track, in her best distance range and flat as a tack. Yaah she won the first one but Hay List was waiting the next year. They dodged him, pure and simple. If you think meaningless WFA victories in Adelaide adds anything to racing-or BC's legacy) then good luck to you.
|
|||||
Baguette
Champion Joined: 18 Dec 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3651 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Hoof filler is merely to hold the shoe on. It would cause Winx no more discomfort than false fingernails would a person. There's a huge difference between managing the wear and tear of these high performance equine athletes and sending out a structurally unsound horse to perform for you. I've spent a lot of time defending racing against the wild eyed animal welfare types who thankfully obsess on all the wrong, and easily defendable, issues like the whip for example. This particular issue I can't defend . I know how hard the good ones try for you and it's seem like the ultimate betrayal to me.
|
|||||
JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11728 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
I'm not sure if "dodged Haylist" or "ultimate betrayal" made me laugh harder. Either way, it looks like same forumites who couldn't stand this horse (for whatever reason) when she was racing still haven't gotten over her. Time to move on people...
|
|||||
furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25165 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
Possibly Gay3 would know a bit more than me on subjects like this. But I think every horse has issues which the trainers keep a close eye on. An athlete usually has a few niggles. A top athlete who time and time again goes above the call has to have some niggles. Black Caviar was built like a bouncer all muscle etc. But she wasn't the build that glides over the turf or is light and wiry. She pulled muscles on more than one occasion etc. With her bulk she must of felt her racing. So yes a trainer says one thing and hopes. They know they are treating the problem and it is responding or something the horse can carry and race with. But if they say anything then the public would of called for a stop immediately. So do we leave it to the trainers and their vets to say - yes they can race - or do we just know best! I kind of believe him. He spent the whole of Black Caviar's career chain smoking. I think the pressure was there and he carried that so the rest of us could enjoy a marvelous sprint mare.
|
|||||
therealkramer
Champion Joined: 12 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 2026 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
So you think the 5.5kg weight swing in Hay List's favour had nothing to do with it? I'm sorry, but if you want to be counted as possibly the best sprinter ever, you accept that challenge, you don't run from it. She beat him by 1.75L in the Lightning-if 2.5kg = 1 length, it would have been a close thing on weights and measures. They favoured soft kills and the unbeaten streak which has been undermined by Winx and surprise surprise the narrative about her 'injuries' is all of a sudden revealed. I don't want to hear anyone horse that raced against a virtual cripple(Hay List) offer up injuries as an excuse. That's the only thing laughable in this thread.
|
|||||
adolphus twirk
Champion Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1442 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
She was well placed. The argument she avoided Hay List is spurious. She also avoided being beaten by not being run in the Cox Plate. But hey.....who knows?
|
|||||
furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25165 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
Sorry therealkramer you are using mares and gelding rates. Different kettle of fish. Different to a handicap. They ran with equal weights for their age and sex in any SW or WFA race they contested. Haylist was a great horse and he almost broke her in that Lightning - she had to do something no horse before or since has done in breaking 10s to beat him.
|
|||||
Balciano
Champion Joined: 09 Nov 2016 Status: Offline Points: 863 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
From memory she backed up back from the 1400 metres of the Orr to the 1000 metre Lightning in the space of 7 days. If they were looking for easy wins or soft kills I can think of easier ways to go about it, particularly against a horse as great as Hay List.
|
|||||
Post Reply | Page <1 3456> |
Tweet |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |