Go to Villagebet.com.au for free horse racing tips - Click here now |
|
Annenkov |
Post Reply | Page 123 5> |
Author | |
tauto
Champion Joined: 14 Jul 2011 Location: EltHAM Status: Offline Points: 1104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 8:16pm |
Looks like l will be sending my Van Nistleroy mare to Annenkov at Allandale stud as she's suited to Danehill types.
Any thoughts? |
|
TAUTO/WINFREUX
|
|
v and m
Champion Joined: 21 May 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1119 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
danehill duplications too close
|
|
ZAMINGA
|
|
maxamill
Champion Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Location: vic Status: Offline Points: 1336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
sons of storm cat x danehill line been quite successful, i would of thought ????, throw in mr P and thats seems even better???? , VM i would of thought you are talking northern dancer , well he is one of the most successful inbreeding lines ever crossed , |
|
Run For Fun
Champion Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14575 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Foal would be in-bred 2m x 3m to Danehill.
|
|
It's hard to soar with eagles...
Cheers |
|
Run For Fun
Champion Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14575 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
That's only if the mare is by Van Nistleroy. If by Van Nistelrooy it's a totally different story as suggested by Max. So maybe a clarification and the name of the mare before offering further comment.
|
|
It's hard to soar with eagles...
Cheers |
|
maxamill
Champion Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Location: vic Status: Offline Points: 1336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
i remember a an artical from a very renowned leading breeder, the one thing better that danehill is more danehill with a little chilli , the chilli is mr prospector or in later day rorys jester unbelievable strike rate
|
|
Run For Fun
Champion Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14575 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Well the figures to date don't appear to support the comment (ie the one thing better than danehill is more danehill) by that un-named but renowned leading breeder.
|
|
It's hard to soar with eagles...
Cheers |
|
tauto
Champion Joined: 14 Jul 2011 Location: EltHAM Status: Offline Points: 1104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
i was led to believe same Danehill/Danzig was a great fit for for Van Nistlerooy mares!!!
What else are you recommending? What about Armadeus Wolf or Widden Valley Court Of Jewels?
|
|
TAUTO/WINFREUX
|
|
Run For Fun
Champion Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14575 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Tauto, more the success of Danehill/Danzig with Storm Cat as distinct from VN - and more so in the NH.
And mate it's difficult to be more forthcoming if we don't know the bottom-half breeding of your mare, and where she's situated. |
|
It's hard to soar with eagles...
Cheers |
|
tauto
Champion Joined: 14 Jul 2011 Location: EltHAM Status: Offline Points: 1104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Swanz is the mare 7yo just retired.
|
|
TAUTO/WINFREUX
|
|
maxamill
Champion Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Location: vic Status: Offline Points: 1336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Moving on from the most popular choices, let’s examine the sires
that have the best records with Danehill mares. In that vein, we
have collated a table showing stallions who have 3 or more SW to
Danehill mares.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the table above shows a few
missed opportunities for those owners of Danehill mares (and
mares by sons of Danehill).
Quest For Fame and Zabeel top this list, but as two of the four
most popular choices for Danehill mares it makes some sense for
them to be here. Both are available to Australian breeders.
Giant’s Causeway is one who arguably should have served more
Danehill mares than he did. By Storm Cat from a Rahy mare, he
offered a reasonable outcross for Danehill (just the 4mx4m cross to
Northern Dancer); and standing at Coolmore Stud it seemed logical
that he would attract Danehill mares. With only 25 named foals
from Danehill mares, it would appear that those owners were focusing
their attentions elsewhere. A shame, as his figures with
Danehill, in hindsight, have been pretty exciting; especially for the
owners of Gr1 winners Just Momente (SAJC Robert Sangster S) and
in the northern hemisphere, Intense Focus (Dewhurst Stakes).
Giant’s Causeway is now solely based in the northern hemisphere
and offers a strong option for Danehill mares based there. |
|
maxamill
Champion Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Location: vic Status: Offline Points: 1336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
rff the unnamed breeder , being john messara arrowfield stud
|
|
maxamill
Champion Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Location: vic Status: Offline Points: 1336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
tauto here is some info for your danehill stallion to swanz Danehill X Storm Bird cross has produced horses such as: Metal Bender (Rosehill Guineas), The Danzig X Storm Cat |
|
tauto
Champion Joined: 14 Jul 2011 Location: EltHAM Status: Offline Points: 1104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thats pretty impressive thanks for that info.
Fingers crossed our offfspring measures upto some of those u mentioned!!! |
|
TAUTO/WINFREUX
|
|
Run For Fun
Champion Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14575 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
I see your mare Swanz hails from an American family containing Mr Prospector and Native Dancer in her pedigree, and that added to a desire to use a Danehill stallion means your choices are almost limitless in Oz.
So maybe just comes down to your personal preference.
|
|
It's hard to soar with eagles...
Cheers |
|
v and m
Champion Joined: 21 May 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1119 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I think Swanz would be better suited to a son of Flying Spur but anyway good luck hope you get a good one :D
|
|
ZAMINGA
|
|
maxamill
Champion Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Location: vic Status: Offline Points: 1336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
v and m isn,t flying spur danehill !!! and didnt you say danehill dup to close !!
any way good luck with that mare tauto i see the on the owners side, you have a few country hicks as well, watch they dont buckle you in there drinking games at melb cup time
|
|
Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
There are some eleven sons of Flying Spur at stud including Krupt whose damsire is by Storm Cat. One may imagine that all eleven bring something different to the mix.
Danehill/Storm Bird and Danzig/Storm Cat? How much relevance do these really have to the mare, Swanz and her family? VGS? We are obviously relying on a computer programme to plan our matings. I find it hard to imagine that there was no difference in using a stallion like Danehill or stallions like Golden Snake, Monashee Mountain or Salt Lake City without any disrespect of those stallions. Surely we realise by now that a statistical analysis cannot predict an outcome. If the first two favourites lose, and statistics prove that one in three favourites win, it does not mean that the third favourite will win. This is especially true if we are using statistics that are often meaningless in terms of sample size, or even measuring something different to what they are claiming. Just because Danzig appears in the 4th generation of a pedigree does not mean that he has the same influence on every horse that carries him in that position. It seems that his influence is apparently even consistent if we bring him forward, or push him back in a pedigree. It is up to you if you think this sort of statement makes sense or not. Midnight Lute by Real Quiet was the best runner in the family in recent times, even though there have been some decent ones. He did not carry Storm Cat, Danzig or Danehill. In fact, at a quick look at the family has me struggling to find any that carries either Danzig or Storm Cat and, considering it was based in the US where these lines are even more prevalent than Australia, that probably has to have some importance. The premise that the mare is suited to Danehill would seem to fly in the face of what has actually worked in the family. Maybe we shouldn't argue with the computer though .......
|
|
maxamill
Champion Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Location: vic Status: Offline Points: 1336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
technology , well why not use it , what ever it may be , one can ask many opinions and would expect many different answers , depending on who it is asked of , I believe grandsires/dam have a lot to do with producing ,obvious better the dam and sire , but the next line being grand Pro do you believe storm cat and danehill cross well , regardless of this mare , and yes pro even you will be using computer to compare
|
|
Run For Fun
Champion Joined: 22 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14575 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
Well be it right or wrong, Tauto's expressed preference for a Danehill line stallion, and Annenkov in particular, was based on the relative success of the Danzig/Storm Cat cross.
And our subsequent offerings generally kept that desire in mind, quite irrespective of the computer analyses offered by one of our members who lioke us all was endeavouring to assist. Mind you I'd hesitate to use Krupt, although he was only mentioned in passing. However it's true, as suggested, that Annenkov and some other Danehill-line stallions largely ignore the bottom half of Swanz's pedigree. The converse of that is that it's not easy to find many Australian-based stallions that appear complementary to Swanz's dam Fikra. Sons of Red Ransom eg Domesday certainly appear best. But it's ultimately down to Tauto, and am sure we all wish he or she every success. |
|
It's hard to soar with eagles...
Cheers |
|
Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I have no problem with using computers for analysis. The trouble starts when we believe the information is more than it is.
Storm Cat and Danehill will succeed in certain cases, and most likely fail in lots of cases. Not all sons of Storm Cat are the same as other sons of Storm Cat, and this works with Danehill. Compatibility of pedigree is what is important. As I said in this case, the family has never had a SW through either Danzig or Storm Cat lines. Clearly it would make sense to look at this rather than saying that all Danehill line stallions will work with Storm Cat line mares. A concept of Storm Cat/Danehill is relatively meaningless, as we do not even know what we are measuring. Are you sure that it is Danehill/Storm Cat, or is it a question of balancing different lines of Northern Dancer? The result will vary depending upon which descendants are present. We know that Lonhro and Niello produced different results. If we cannot accurately predict full siblings performance, then isn't it a bit of a stretch to categorically state that it is the presence of an ancestor in the 3rd generation that is all important? Maybe we should just blame it on the Mosquito after all.
|
|
tauto
Champion Joined: 14 Jul 2011 Location: EltHAM Status: Offline Points: 1104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks for everyones input.Seems Danehill is the way to go.And drinking games at Melb Cup time will only add to the fun of the week!!!
Bring on the Spring Carnival!!!!
|
|
TAUTO/WINFREUX
|
|
v and m
Champion Joined: 21 May 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1119 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
max - I was refering to the Van Nistleroy (by Danehill) mare x Annenkov (by Danehill) cross having too close a duplication of Danehill, since it has now been confirmed that it is actually Van Nistelrooy (by Storm Cat) mare (Swanz) x Annenkov then there is no duplication of Danehill in the match.
Further more the reason why I think a son of Flying Spur would suit is because he comes from the same family as Van Nistelrooy, when flying spur has been crossed with others from his own family it has produced horses like Bliss Street and Krupt
|
|
ZAMINGA
|
|
Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
For a start, is it a huge assumption to say that the Danehill/Storm Cat cross is a resounding success? In this case we are looking at Danehill as a grandsire over Storm Cat as a grand damsire cross. To compare it with anything else is to compare something very different. Even if there were 10 cases of this Danzig/Storm Cat grandsire/granddamsire cross that were stakes winners, does this impact the likelihood of success of any future crosses on this basis?
If your mare went to a stallion and produced a SW, can you guarantee me that the next mating between those two would be a stakes winner? Obviously not, but it seems to be implicit in the nicking theory that a past mating will influence a future one. I certainly wish tauto all the best in his/her endeavour which is exactly why some balance should come into the argument. Again, the family has never produced a stakes horse from either a Danzig or a Storm Cat line stallion. Is it possible that the assumption of Danehill/Storm Cat might not be relevant in this case even if it was accepted? Real Quiet, Gilded Time and Dehere have all been prominent in past stakeswinners in the family. These influences may well be available in Australia. I am not even suggesting that Danehill would not play a part in the pedigree, but as part of a wider pedigree. Obviously with the prevalence of Danehill, it is hard to find non-Danehill lines. He is not a weakness, but it isn't necessarily the key to a pedigree which is the original assumption which is basically that any son/grandson of Danehill is like any other.
|
|
Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
maxamill
Champion Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Location: vic Status: Offline Points: 1336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
information is information, it is then in the hands of the interperter , and as you would know i could give information to 10 diferent people and get 10 differing answers , from 1 spectrum to another ,
I class danehill as a true champion stallion , and i would go as close to him as i posssible could, not flying spur or sons of, i also class storm cat as a champion stallion , and would do the same but given there both dead i would try and go as close as possible , and yes no cross is guarenteed but the facts are danehill and storm cat have success any way i look at it , call it northern dancer or what ever u will and you are right they may fail in a lot of cases , as everything , thats why we have statistics , As with Niello and Lonhro ,and the 5 other full siblings , well they didnt do anything near these 2 so would we say that mating is no good !!!!
|
|
tauto
Champion Joined: 14 Jul 2011 Location: EltHAM Status: Offline Points: 1104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
What other stallions would you propose in Victoria?
I was keen on Armadeus Wolf!! And Court Of Jewels but got one already and very happy any other suggestions. A friend suggested Dylan Thomas but l thought a bit $$$$ too much!!! And Widden Valley was stronly recommended!!! Any others? |
|
TAUTO/WINFREUX
|
|
Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Victoria? But Annenkov stands in NSW?
|
|
Progold
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
And you don't see a problem with that? Statistics .... well
|
|
tauto
Champion Joined: 14 Jul 2011 Location: EltHAM Status: Offline Points: 1104 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
NSW IS OK BUT WOULD PREFER Victoria.
|
|
TAUTO/WINFREUX
|
|
Post Reply | Page 123 5> |
Tweet |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |