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Finland's failed basic income trial exposes timele

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Isaac soloman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 May 2018 at 1:59pm
Finland recently cooled on its so-called "universal basic income" experiment of replacing traditional unemployment relief with unconditional flat cheques for a sample of unemployed adults.

Contrary to what its name suggests, the trialled scheme was not "universal": a sample of already-unemployed people, not a sample of the whole population, received cheques.

What mainly set it apart from conventional unemployment relief was that receiving the cheques was not conditional on remaining unemployed. One could be engaged in any activity, or not engaged in any activity, and still receive the cheques — as long as one was unemployed when the government first started up the trial.

Rather than UBI, an apt moniker for the scheme might have been "flat-cheque 'permanent' (for the duration of the trial) support for (a sample of) the unemployed".

Rather than exploring the challenges of implementing a bona fide UBI, it's worth returning to the fundamental and timeless problem of welfare, highlighting some of the additional problems with government assistance programs that have arisen in recent times, and considering what — if not UBI — might address some of these problems.

A disincentive to work

The fundamental and timeless problem of any national welfare system is how to assist people experiencing need without giving those people — via that very gift itself — a disincentive to work. All tried-and-tested welfare programs face some flavour of this core problem.

Media player: "Space" to play, "M" to mute, "left" and "right" to seek.

 
AUDIO: A universal basic wage? (The Money)

UBI doesn't solve this problem. If anything, UBI creates worse work disincentives than traditional targeted welfare: not only do people who really need the UBI cheques face a disincentive to work, since the cheques aren't conditional on seeking a job or any other productive activity, but people who really don't need the cheques are likely to see a work disincentive too, in the form of the massive income taxes that are required to fully fund a UBI scheme.

The cold reality is that governments need some source from which to draw money in order to perform the functions of state, which include supporting the needy. To finance its spending, a government can tax, borrow or print.

The lack of popular enthusiasm for any of these means of generating income often comes with a dreary post-modern (and often warranted) scepticism about the intentions of government officials and politicians who decide how money gets spent.

This toxic blend nurtures many reactionary contributions to current debates about how to reform government spending. The push towards UBI is one of the more idealistic of such reactionary contributions.

Media player: "Space" to play, "M" to mute, "left" and "right" to seek.

 
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VIDEO: Why the world's richest say a universal basic income is good policy (The Business)

Is UK 'universal credit' scheme the answer?

Despite its lack of practicality, it does contain a promising idea, which is the replacement of smaller payments from several highly conditional assistance programs (for example, child support, housing support, food support) that have burgeoned over time with one bigger cheque that is less conditional, in the sense of requiring fewer administrative checks on a person's circumstances. This innovation can potentially lower administrative burdens and create better welfare accessibility for needy people.

While no longer keen on UBI, Finland seems interested in this basic idea.

Media player: "Space" to play, "M" to mute, "left" and "right" to seek.

 
VIDEO: Q&A: What is universal basic income? (ABC News)

Like the "universal credit" scheme put in place by the UK a few years ago, a reform in this direction would (again!) not be universal, but would address the growing administrative complexity that in part originally prompted the UBI trial.

The UK does still condition its "universal credit" payments on a few factors, such as requiring unemployed recipients to look for work. To make the program affordable — just as with every other long-term feasible welfare program — people who do find work have to relinquish the benefit gradually as their earned income rises.

This claw-back of benefits inevitably causes some degree of work disincentive effect, taking us full-circle back to the fundamental problem of welfare programs that neither UBI, nor any other welfare system, can fully escape.

'Work is good' narrative must start early

The best antidote to the work disincentive effects created by government assistance programs is to embed the idea that working is something to which everyone should aspire. Upholding that idea in our social narrative makes people want to work, even if their welfare check is being clawed away as their income rises.

This is no cruel Dickensian injunction. Compared to being idle, working in a developed nation today is psychologically healthy, it helps the nation prosper, and it provides people with a social role, something to do and more success in the marriage market.

Even Marx thought the relationship between a person and his work so crucial that he envisioned all of society mutating when that relationship weakened. Simply put, it is good for both the economy and the people in it to maintain a social stigma against long-term idleness amongst those who are physically, psychologically, and socially able to work.

Many people are not idle, and yet do not earn income — the classic example being stay-at-home parents with small children who must be cared for. The right sort of stigma does not direct its disapproval towards such people.

Nor do we want a stigma that punishes people of sound mind and body whose skills become less marketable for technological reasons outside their control, such as many of those whose jobs were largely replaced by computers back in the 1970s.

We as a society should instead encourage and subsidise the discovery of other productive skills, re-training, and return to work (whether paid or unpaid) for these people as soon as reasonably practical.

If we are going to play ball with welfare reform, we would be wise to start with a template more akin to "universal credit" than to UBI — while promoting in the narratives at schools, in government communications, and within families the idea that working is a healthy and positive activity for ourselves and for the nation.

Gigi Foster is associate professor in the school of economics at the University of New South Wales.

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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 2:11pm
I am not going to read all that garbage and considering it has been posted by a none thinking right winger it can not be of much value.

There can be absolutely no doubt that has technology progresses there will come a time when a universal basic income will be imperative. It may not be in our lifetime but it will need to happen eventually.

The rich will not be rich for long if 80+% of the population are unemployed and have no money to spend.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isaac soloman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 5:20pm
It didnt come out so well but it does come from the abc website.

and if you havnt read it how can you comment?

typical of someone who puts their head in the sand.

if you have something to get out of bed for, is good for your mental health, usually.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 7:15pm
Saw some version of this story lately and remembered some lefty or another on here holding Finland up as an exemplar to the world.
"She's going through a growth phase." - GW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not going to read all that garbage and considering it has been posted by a none thinking right winger it can not be of much value.

There can be absolutely no doubt that has technology progresses there will come a time when a universal basic income will be imperative. It may not be in our lifetime but it will need to happen eventually.

The rich will not be rich for long if 80+% of the population are unemployed and have no money to spend.



I suggest you read the article.
"She's going through a growth phase." - GW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by stayer stayer wrote:

Saw some version of this story lately and remembered some lefty or another on here holding Finland up as an exemplar to the world.


Regularly at the top (if not leading) the world in rankings for health and education. Also a rich country with low crime rates. This was just a trial.

Personally I wouldn’t like to be tax and spend country like Finland (I think somewhere between the American and Scandinavian models is what’s generally served us well), but there’s a lot to admire about Finland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 7:47pm
Would be nice to have their oil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Originally posted by stayer stayer wrote:

Saw some version of this story lately and remembered some lefty or another on here holding Finland up as an exemplar to the world.


Regularly at the top (if not leading) the world in rankings for health and education. Also a rich country with low crime rates. This was just a trial.

Personally I wouldn’t like to be tax and spend country like Finland (I think somewhere between the American and Scandinavian models is what’s generally served us well), but there’s a lot to admire about Finland.


And their not the first and only to trial this.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170118-what-if-the-state-provided-everyone-with-a-basic-income
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by stayer stayer wrote:

Would be nice to have their oil.


I think you’re thinking of Norway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 8:02pm
Lol. Well done, judge.
"She's going through a growth phase." - GW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2018 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not going to read all that garbage and considering it has been posted by a none thinking right winger it can not be of much value.

There can be absolutely no doubt that has technology progresses there will come a time when a universal basic income will be imperative. It may not be in our lifetime but it will need to happen eventually.

The rich will not be rich for long if 80+% of the population are unemployed and have no money to spend.


... and with mindless stupidity like that rampant amongst the unemployable, entitled, talentless Socialist leftards, you had better bloody hope it comes soon for the sake of you and your offspring!Dead
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 7:31am
Originally posted by Dr E Dr E wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not going to read all that garbage and considering it has been posted by a none thinking right winger it can not be of much value.

There can be absolutely no doubt that has technology progresses there will come a time when a universal basic income will be imperative. It may not be in our lifetime but it will need to happen eventually.

The rich will not be rich for long if 80+% of the population are unemployed and have no money to spend.


... and with mindless stupidity like that rampant amongst the unemployable, entitled, talentless Socialist leftards, you had better bloody hope it comes soon for the sake of you and your offspring!Dead


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 9:36am
I'm sure Dr Ego would support a cancer or heart attack victim being turned away to die if they've not got the money to pay for their care, that sums him up for mine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 9:39am
Doc presumes that come the economic winter, he will be one of the special ones saved the plight of the other 80-90%.

In most revolutions though, they lose their heads firstLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isaac soloman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 10:16am
Originally posted by Dr E Dr E wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not going to read all that garbage and considering it has been posted by a none thinking right winger it can not be of much value.

There can be absolutely no doubt that has technology progresses there will come a time when a universal basic income will be imperative. It may not be in our lifetime but it will need to happen eventually.

The rich will not be rich for long if 80+% of the population are unemployed and have no money to spend.


... and with mindless stupidity like that rampant amongst the unemployable, entitled, talentless Socialist leftards, you had better bloody hope it comes soon for the sake of you and your offspring!Dead

thought the opposite doc; dj wouldnt  live long enough to see it implemented, because superannuation will mean riches for a lot for a long timeLOL

ps pt is sneaky for enlarging and highlighting docs post. for that matter how can you alter someone elses post? thats manipulation. surely not allowed. are you in trouble pt?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 12:48pm
We are due for a Revolution.    Needed Badly.

The 1% at the top of Australia's "rich" List have more than the 70% at the bottom.      Grounds to rebel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 1:14pm
Thanks for your concern(I assume) Isaac, but I think I may just be ok Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isaac soloman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 1:28pm
did you touch up the docs post pt?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 1:36pm
Yes, I improved it out of sight. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isaac soloman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 1:39pm
looking forward to the docs reply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 1:40pm
I will be disappointed if he doesn't
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isaac soloman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 1:40pm
fake news ptLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

Originally posted by Dr E Dr E wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not going to read all that garbage and considering it has been posted by a none thinking right winger it can not be of much value.

There can be absolutely no doubt that has technology progresses there will come a time when a universal basic income will be imperative. It may not be in our lifetime but it will need to happen eventually.

The rich will not be rich for long if 80+% of the population are unemployed and have no money to spend.


... and with mindless stupidity like that rampant amongst the unemployable, entitled, talentless Socialist leftards, you had better bloody hope it comes soon for the sake of you and your offspring!Dead


In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Afros Afros wrote:

I'm sure Dr Ego would support a cancer or heart attack victim being turned away to die if they've not got the money to pay for their care, that sums him up for mine.

You're about as informed as djebel, aren't you!?Embarrassed

Welcome to Socialism ... try learning something ... if it helps, just skip the monosyllabic words Wink

With medicine running out, Venezuelans with transplants live in fear


CARACAS (Reuters) - Yasmira Castano felt she had a fresh chance at life when she received a kidney transplant almost two decades ago. The young Venezuelan was able to finish high school and went on to work as a manicurist.

But late last year, Castano, now 40, was unable to find the drugs needed to keep her body from rejecting the organ, as Venezuela’s healthcare system slid deeper into crisis following years of economic turmoil.

On Christmas Eve, weak and frail, Castano was rushed to a crumbling state hospital in Venezuela’s teeming capital, Caracas. Her immune system had attacked the foreign organ and she lost her kidney shortly afterwards.

Now, Castano needs dialysis three times a week to filter her blood. But the hospital attached to Venezuela’s Central University, once one of South America’s top institutions, frequently suffers water outages and lacks materials for dialysis.

“I spend nights not sleeping, just worrying,” said Castano, who weighs around 77 pounds (35 kg), as she lay on an old bed in a bleak hospital room, its bare walls unadorned by a television or pictures.

Her roommate Lismar Castellanos, who just turned 21, put it more bluntly.

“Unfortunately, I could die,” said Castellanos, who lost her transplanted kidney last year and is struggling to get the dialysis she needs to keep her body functioning.

The women are among Venezuela’s roughly 3,500 transplant recipients. After years leading normal lives, they now live in fear as Venezuela’s economic collapse under President Nicolas Maduro has left the once-prosperous OPEC nation unable to purchase sufficient foreign medicine or produce enough of its own.

Some 31 Venezuelans have seen their bodies start to reject their transplanted organs in the last month due to lack of medicine, according to umbrella health group Codevida, a non-governmental organization.

At least seven have died due to complications stemming from organ failure in the last three months.

A further 16,000 Venezuelans, many hoping for an elusive transplant, are dependent on dialysis to clean their blood - but here too, resources and materials are sorely lacking.

Nearly half of the country’s dialysis units are out of service, according to opposition lawmaker and oncologist Jose Manuel Olivares, a leading voice on the health crisis who has toured dialysis centers to assess the scale of the problem.

In the last three weeks alone, seven people have died due to lack of dialysis, according to Codevida, which staged a protest to decry the critical drug shortages.

Once-controlled diseases like diphtheria and measles have returned, due partly to insufficient vaccines and antibiotics, while Venezuelans suffering chronic illnesses like cancer or diabetes often have to forgo treatment.

Hundreds of thousands of desperate Venezuelans, meanwhile, have fled the country over the past year, including many medical professionals.

Amid a lack of basics like catheters and crumbling hospital infrastructure, doctors who remain struggle to cope with ever scarcer resources.

“It’s incredibly stressful. We request supplies; they don’t arrive. We call again and they still don’t arrive. Then we realize it’s because there aren’t any,” said a kidney specialist at a public hospital, asking to remain anonymous because health workers are not allowed to speak publicly about the situation.

Venezuela’s Social Security Institute, tasked with providing patients with drugs for chronic conditions, did not respond to a request for comment.

“STRAIGHT TO THE CEMETERY”

Terrified transplant patients are indebting themselves to buy pricey medicine on the black market, begging relatives abroad to funnel drugs into the country or dangerously reducing their daily intake of pills to stretch out stock.

Larry Zambrano, a 45-year old father of two with a kidney transplant, resorted to taking immunosuppressants designed for animals last year.

Guillermo Habanero and his brother Emerson both underwent kidney transplants after suffering polycystic kidney disease. Emerson, a healthy 53-year-old former police officer, died in November after a month without immunosuppressants.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-transplants/with-medicine-running-out-venezuelans-with-transplants-live-in-fear-idUSKCN1G41FR

In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Just Another Successful Socialist Experiment Clap ... 

In Caracas, Sick Humans Are Resorting to Dog Medicine

Pharmacy shelves are bare, and black-market prices are sky-high. People are turning to antibiotics for pets.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-11/in-caracas-sick-humans-are-resorting-to-dog-medicine
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2018 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

Doc presumes that come the economic winter, he will be one of the special ones saved the plight of the other 80-90%.

In most revolutions though, they lose their heads firstLOL

No, I think the stupid and ill informed will perish first ... you might want to consider not acting so stupid CNNPT!Wink
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2018 at 7:18pm
Any welfare program which either

A. Hands out money when a person needs it, or

B. Hands it out when the recipient is less likely to add value to society,

is flawed.

If the governments started an account with $10,000 for every baby when they were born, and the part of the parents income was compulsorily entered into the account each fortnight, then by the time the child turned 21 they would have enough for a deposit for a house in Sydney or to buy one anywhere else in the country. At least this way they have a financial base which they can live their life with.

The other way is for governments to build homes (which they already do), offer loans to parents with no deposit and no interest, making it a financially neutral loan for the parents (in other words the rent from the tenants could cover the loan's monthly payment).

The problem with welfare currently, is that you are spending bad money after bad, and not getting any value from the recipients, who can offer something to the community.

As Kerry Packer once said, he did not mind paying taxes, but did not pay taxes to see governments waste the money.

It is similar to subsidiing gastric band operations for people over 20 kilos overweight. A study showed before the last election that the federal government spent $40,000 a year on each individual.

Now the operation costs $20,000.

So which do you think is more financially viable, spending $40,000 a year for at least 20 years, or a one off payment of $20,000.

Oh well what do we know!
Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

Any welfare program which either

A. Hands out money when a person needs it, or

B. Hands it out when the recipient is less likely to add value to society,

is flawed.

If the governments started an account with $10,000 for every baby when they were born, and the part of the parents income was compulsorily entered into the account each fortnight, then by the time the child turned 21 they would have enough for a deposit for a house in Sydney or to buy one anywhere else in the country. At least this way they have a financial base which they can live their life with.

The other way is for governments to build homes (which they already do), offer loans to parents with no deposit and no interest, making it a financially neutral loan for the parents (in other words the rent from the tenants could cover the loan's monthly payment).

The problem with welfare currently, is that you are spending bad money after bad, and not getting any value from the recipients, who can offer something to the community.

As Kerry Packer once said, he did not mind paying taxes, but did not pay taxes to see governments waste the money.

It is similar to subsidiing gastric band operations for people over 20 kilos overweight. A study showed before the last election that the federal government spent $40,000 a year on each individual.

Now the operation costs $20,000.

So which do you think is more financially viable, spending $40,000 a year for at least 20 years, or a one off payment of $20,000.

Oh well what do we know!


One of the great lies of the 20th century- packer would have paid no tax if he could have got away with it. And you know I ain't lying.Wink
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Afros View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2018 at 8:43pm
Considering one of his most famous quotes in relation to tax avoidance was 'anyone who pays more tax then they have to is an idiot' I doubt he would have been happy to pay tax!
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Dr E View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2018 at 10:12pm
... and there you have it ... poor people make these judgements about the wealthy, with no understanding or experience whatsoever.Ermm

For rich people, tax is just a way of keeping score ... you know, you have to earn it before you can minimise it ... not a problem that confronts more than half of the population!

One of the wealthiest people I ever know personally, loved writing out a cheque each month to the ATO.

As he said ... "if you're not paying tax, your're not making money!"Big smile
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
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