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Does Gai Waterhouse have many horses any more?

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wheelie View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 2:06pm
Something that seems very obvious for the past 18 months is the lack of runners from the Waterhouse & Bott stable.  Often they have no runners for a metro meeting, something unheard off a few years ago.

Where are all her 2yo's?"

Supposedly the Queen of the babies yet she rarely has a runner in town.  Apart from Unite and Conquer and Czarson I can't remember another metro 2yo winner.

It's past mid January so normally by now she would have at least half a dozen contenders on display for the slipper, this year she has none.

At the recent MM Sale on the Gold Coast I think it was the first time she didn't buy a yearling for over $1m. 

Has she lost all/most of her clients?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 2:32pm
What does Bott bring to the party ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hartnell is dominant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 2:36pm
She’s winding down getting ready to retire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 2:54pm
Waterhouse/Bott purchased 26 at the Magic Millions, and suspect that will have about doubled by the times the Easter Yearling Sale concludes.

Fwiw this season 42 wins at 15.7% including 20 in the city at 13.7%.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 2:58pm
Sorry, that's only NSW.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheelie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Waterhouse/Bott purchased 26 at the Magic Millions, and suspect that will have about doubled by the times the Easter Yearling Sale concludes.

Fwiw this season 42 wins at 15.7% including 20 in the city at 13.7%.


Yes but not many are 2yo in the city.  These days seems they have more starters in the country than the city.

I thought the reason she bought Bott in was the money.  Didn't he buy his was into the partnership?

None of the replies answer the fact that they have few runners at every metro meeting and her once stranglehold on the 2yo races is now non-existent.

They certainly buy a lot of yearlings every year but few  seem to have much talent.  Most un-Gai like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 4:08pm
I thought I read somewhere they were moving away from the early 2YO types and looking to buy more 3YO's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 4:19pm
Not disagreeing Wheelie, just trotting out some stats.

I well remember when Gai would have 140 2yo's go through her stable for four or five 2yo stakes-winners, some lesser 2yo winners, 20-odd that trained on as older horses, 40 too slows and 60 gone-wrongs.  

Following TJM's post, it may well be that Bott isn't into 2yo's as much as Gai was.  Or even does bone scans to determine whether youngsters have sufficient bone to sustain an early and demanding 2yo preparation.  And he's the one who gets up at 3am these days, whereas Gai essentially "value adds" in addition to maintaining the client base.  

Just sort of thinking and typing, so could be entirely wrong.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hartnell is dominant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 4:29pm
Focussing more on Derbies and Oaks than Slippers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 4:51pm
Though 24 of the 28 she bought at MM are bred along sprinter/miler lines.

However Snitzel's apart she may well go for stouter types at Easter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Though 24 of the 28 she bought at MM are bred along sprinter/miler lines.

However Snitzel's apart she may well go for stouter types at Easter.


Without having looked at the pedigree I'll bet you are way off target.

That said. Why would she limit herself to a certain type.

The best trainer any of you have ever seen dominated every sphere of the breed last season in the UK and its neighbors.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 5:28pm
If you haven't looked at the lots, how or why can you possibly come on here and make such a totally unsubstantiated comment?  Confused


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

If you haven't looked at the lots, how or why can you possibly come on here and make such a totally unsubstantiated comment?  Confused




Because I suspect you do not read a pedigree correctly.

I think all you see is 1200m and that is it.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 7:06pm
Lot 46. Vancouver from Show A Heart mare which won to 1100m
Lot 52.  Sebring from Pins mare Rebound which won to 1200m
Lot 185.  I Am invincible from Stratum mare which won to 2400m.
Lot 284.  Vancouver from More Than Ready mare which won to 1200m
Lot 351. Vancouver from Pins mare which won to 1200m
Lot 380.  Written Tycoon from a Good Journey mare that won in the bush over 1800m.
Lot 385.  I Am Invincible from a Filante mare that won to 1600m
Lot 409.  Vancouver from a Mycharlieboy mare that won to 1350m
Lot 415.  Snitzel from a Choisir mare that won to 1600m
Lot 439.  Vancouver from a Stryker mare that won at 1200. 

Will go further if considered absolutely necessary, however not many Oaks or Derby candidates there so far.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 7:49pm
All the Vancouvers and at least 1 I Am Invincible have classic pedigrees.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 10:50pm
I am not sure how a "classic pedigree" is to be defined.  I would imagine that a classic pedigree would reflect families that perform in Oaks and Derbies as 3yo, as these are what have been defined as the classic races for hundreds of years.  In all of the Vancouver yearlings, the only classic performer is Rebel Raider who appears under the 5th dam of lot 409. Lot 185 is out of Streama who won an Australian Oaks, but I Am Invincible has not sired a stakes winner past 1600m so to define it as a "classic pedigree" could be a stretch if we are using the 3yo classics as our benchmark for likely performance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 11:45pm
Djebel is a bit of a dreamer LOL
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2019 at 11:48pm
Progold,   Classic horses are 3yos between 1600m and 3000m.

Vancouver will be siring horses suitable to these assignments.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Newtown Old Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 9:45am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Progold,   Classic horses are 3yos between 1600m and 3000m.

Vancouver will be siring horses suitable to these assignments.


Yes but wait till they get sent to these Aussie trainers. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Newtown Old Boy Newtown Old Boy wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Progold,   Classic horses are 3yos between 1600m and 3000m.

Vancouver will be siring horses suitable to these assignments.



Yes but wait till they get sent to these Aussie trainers. Wink


Sarcasm or not, you are 100% correct.

One learns nothing about a horse with stamina under most Australian trainers.

Gai is one of the more likely to get the best out of them.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 11:00am
A miler is not a classic horse I am afraid.  Manikato won the Caulfield Guineas over a mile as a 3yo but I can never imagine a discussion where Manikato, among the world's greatest sprinters of all time, would be classified as a Classic type of racehorse.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 11:56am
djebel  please hit Preview before posting space & time (mine) wasting & annoying comments Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

djebel  please hit Preview before posting space & time (mine) wasting & annoying comments Smile

Gay, ALL of those postings I sent, I previewed and they were showing correctly on posting.

For some reason they disappear later on.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Progold Progold wrote:

A miler is not a classic horse I am afraid.  Manikato won the Caulfield Guineas over a mile as a 3yo but I can never imagine a discussion where Manikato, among the world's greatest sprinters of all time, would be classified as a Classic type of racehorse.



1600m Guineas races are part of the CLASSIC make up.

The five CLASSICS are - the two Guineas races, The Derby and Oaks, and the St Leger.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 12:42pm
I think things have changed.  The St Leger is now a Listed race, and the last winner of the Caulfiled Guineas to even run in a Derby was Whobegotyou (a gelding by the way who used to be banned from running in Classics) in 2008 while the last winner of the Guineas/Derby was Helenus in 2002.  Anacheeva to be fair did run in an AJC Derby.  If we are talking NSW, then the St Leger no longer exists, and was changed from 3yo's in 1985.  The AJC Derby was moved to the Autumn in the 1970's so it is hard to rely on tradition if this is the reason for classifying these races as "3yo Classics" in Australia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee Gee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 1:14pm
Has a few nice 2yo's trialling later this week. Espaaniyah and Farreti in particular. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazyview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 2:40pm
Lol, at the time the post was written she'd had three 2YO stakes winners (Unite and Conquer, Vinicunca and Espaaniyah) and another metro winner, Czarson.

You'll find that is amongst the best record in the country at this stage, the whole country is now focussed on 2YO racing and it is mighty competitive. Four (Syd/Mel) metro winners, three at stakes level, I hazard to guess, would be as good, if not better, than anyone else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 3:02pm
To answer the threads question, I do not think that she has many horses as she had during the nineties, but that is just a symptom of the way racing is these days.

If you look at Tommy Smith, he and Bart dominated the slipper in the 1970's, but then Tommy had a drought and then won two in the late 80's and had to breed one of those himself.

Plus these days I think you will find that Gai spends most of her time in Melbourne being a grandmother. That is probably why you find that the stables winner to runner ratio, is better in Melbourne, especially during the carnivals.

As far as Bott is concerned, I was also under the impression he was to bring some Asian clients to the stable, but not sure that has happened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 6:41pm
Some new trainers now with massive strings are thinning her prospect too, but she'll find one she always does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TIGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2019 at 6:14am
Maybe owners want a trainer who will get more than 3 preps out of a racehorse before its burnt out and retired
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