Cracksman

For starters anyone putting down Frankel is just being silly the horse was a sprinter miler who Henry Cecil said wouldve won the July Cup..he was never going to run over 2400m and it was a credit to the trainer that we saw him over 2000m.

Secondly Highland Reel 4 years ago on his start before coming to Australia was a 16/1 5th of 8 in Ireland beaten around 5 lengths by Golden Horn..he was not an elite 2090m horse at he time and Im not sure he ever was.A big striding dour horse who needed a long straight to outstay opponents,a 2400m specialist,whats relevant is that he was beaten by Criterion that day.At his best years later he was 2 to 3 lengths minimum superior to Criterion even over 2000m.

The point about Septimus is completely irrelevant the horse was ridden atrociously and was lame and nearly died,never to race again.Europe has proved beyond any doubt how far superior their stayers are in the melbourne cup.

Winx v cracksman v enable etc

Winx is a miler 2000m horse,Cracksman and Enable can win ocer 2000m but 2400m is their distance.Totally different horses, like Frankel Winx could win a July Cup and youd think Cracksman could win a melbourne cup if he didnt have 62kgs on his back.

As far as comparing jurisdictions blind freddie must realise that horses like Gailo Chop and Hartnell would not be the 2nd best wfa horse in Europe the depth in Australian middle distance racing is non existant..if Winx retired right now Gailo Chop would be the best 2000m wfa horse in Australasia and thats a tragedy really.
But that doesnt mean Winx isnt a freak , she is , but to me its like watching Dustin Johnson winning on the aussie tour every week by12, amazing but youd be saying how much youd like to see him on the pgatour to test himself.
Winx has outgrown Australian middle distance racing.

Over a mile nothing gets near her anywhere currentky theres no canford cliffs no kongsman no frankel no goldikova but over 2000m plus Cracksman and Enable are in a different league to anything shes ever faced.

Some Poms have been known to enjoy the sunshine, better food and lifestyle down under Patsy, so much so that they stay . How's your swing these days?

ThreeBears wrote: but I note that was Cracksman's first start out of restricted grade. More rubbish Macca. Back to school for you. Champion Stakes last autumn was open class Gr1. And times are not relevant against the course record only. Headwinds, rain on the day, race pace, on the day same distance comparison, length of grass etc all play a factor.

You can't see the forest for the trees.
When considering times run, all these conditions are considered as to why one days times are "on fire" and other days very slow .
or --- why track bias comes into play.     There is many hours a day, every day , goes into "form study" and it is amazing how , The more study the luckier we become.

patsy fagan wrote: For starters anyone putting down Frankel is just being silly the horse was a sprinter miler who Henry Cecil said wouldve won the July Cup..he was never going to run over 2400m and it was a credit to the trainer that we saw him over 2000m. Secondly Highland Reel 4 years ago on his start before coming to Australia was a 16/1 5th of 8 in Ireland beaten around 5 lengths by Golden Horn..he was not an elite 2090m horse at he time and Im not sure he ever was.A big striding dour horse who needed a long straight to outstay opponents,a 2400m specialist,whats relevant is that he was beaten by Criterion that day.At his best years later he was 2 to 3 lengths minimum superior to Criterion even over 2000m. The point about Septimus is completely irrelevant the horse was ridden atrociously and was lame and nearly died,never to race again.Europe has proved beyond any doubt how far superior their stayers are in the melbourne cup. Winx v cracksman v enable etc Winx is a miler 2000m horse,Cracksman and Enable can win ocer 2000m but 2400m is their distance.Totally different horses, like Frankel Winx could win a July Cup and youd think Cracksman could win a melbourne cup if he didnt have 62kgs on his back. As far as comparing jurisdictions blind freddie must realise that horses like Gailo Chop and Hartnell would not be the 2nd best wfa horse in Europe the depth in Australian middle distance racing is non existant..if Winx retired right now Gailo Chop would be the best 2000m wfa horse in Australasia and thats a tragedy really. But that doesnt mean Winx isnt a freak , she is , but to me its like watching Dustin Johnson winning on the aussie tour every week by12, amazing but youd be saying how much youd like to see him on the pgatour to test himself. Winx has outgrown Australian middle distance racing. Over a mile nothing gets near her anywhere currentky theres no canford cliffs no kongsman no frankel no goldikova but over 2000m plus Cracksman and Enable are in a different league to anything shes ever faced.

Patsy has returned from a spell .    He doesn't go well first up.
Still making excuses for Septimus.     He was one slow horse .

Tlazolteotl wrote: Patsy says the obvious truth- Euro middle distance horses here who compete against Winx were G2 at best back home. Do the Aussie trainers improve them markedly on what they were at home? Maybe there is a little of that, but if Aussie trainers were any good at improving stayers, why can't they do it with AU/NZ breds?

Kav thats crazy because Cracksman was first up for 6 months and is much better over 2400m than 2000m..

Thats why this latest effort was so good because its nowhere near what he is capable of currently.

Why are we comparing a 2400m horse to a miler..

3blindmice wrote: Some Poms have been known to enjoy the sunshine, better food and lifestyle down under Patsy, so much so that they stay . How's your swing these days?

It’s good thanks mate,love Australia :)

patsy fagan wrote: Kav thats crazy because Cracksman was first up for 6 months and is much better over 2400m than 2000m.. Thats why this latest effort was so good because its nowhere near what he is capable of currently. Why are we comparing a 2400m horse to a miler..

Tlazolteotl wrote: In the same stable as Enable- that will be interesting.

Nice exaggeration there Patsy - it was Oct 2015 and none of Europe's best has been game to come since. Can't blame them after they watched her demolish a field containing horses which had run not far behind a horse you may have heard of - Solow. As I've said previously, a defeat at the hands of a mare from the southern hemisphere wouldn't have looked good on the CV. It wouldn't be so bad now since the ratings people -including to their discredit, Timeform Au - have grudgingly conceded her true ability. Any rising 7 year old champions in Europe?

I disagree Djebel his main targets are all the top 2400m races and he’s a horse with a huge stride, Euro 2000m races might suit as its more stamina sapping but to me he just looks a powerhouse of a stayer.

patsy fagan wrote: I disagree Djebel his main targets are all the top 2400m races and he’s a horse with a huge stride, Euro 2000m races might suit as its more stamina sapping but to me he just looks a powerhouse of a stayer.

Morston wrote: 3blindmice wrote: Nice exaggeration there Patsy - it was Oct 2015 and none of Europe's best has been game to come since. Can't blame them after they watched her demolish a field containing horses which had run not far behind a horse you may have heard of - Solow. As I've said previously, a defeat at the hands of a mare from the southern hemisphere wouldn't have looked good on the CV. It wouldn't be so bad now since the ratings people -including to their discredit, Timeform Au - have grudgingly conceded her true ability. Any rising 7 year old champions in Europe? But, not so long ago, on a thread about whether Winx should travel to Ascot, there were many posts about how travel can take it out of a horse and how they may not perform at their best, therefore she should not go.....yet Euro horses are supposed to go to Australia and always perform at their best, and are judged on those performances....a case of double standards it seems

Morston..   the inferior complex.   ???      Or maybe Patsy Fagan ruffles our feathers.
Travelling didn't seem to stop the Reel from battering them in the Hong Kong vase , a few weeks after Winx handed out a galloping lesson.

Winx is the best in the World , or any other small Country Town.   If you doubt that ....    Just ask me again ....

maccamax wrote: Morston..   the inferior complex.   ???      Or maybe Patsy Fagan ruffles our feathers. Travelling didn't seem to stop the Reel from battering them in the Hong Kong vase , a few weeks after Winx handed out a galloping lesson. Winx is the best in the World , or any other small Country Town.   If you doubt that ....    Just ask me again ....