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Conformation Call

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Buck View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 8:15am
Who can make the call on TYPE selection of stallion to fit this mare, what are her conformation faults & finally, what's she worth on type alone?
 
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Jarryd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jarryd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 8:30am

Know this is off-topic, but where abouts is this photo taken? Looks like the You-Yangs in Victoria in the background..

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Clem Hill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clem Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 9:05am
On first impressions she looks to me to be in a rather pensive mood. I'd suggest she may be 'in season'

She looks like she may have a rather stroppy temper if you were to get on her bad side. I suggest you feed her regularly to avoid any signs of distemper.

I find her coat to be rather unique but aesthetically pleasing to the eye. The splashes of white on her leg and face contrasting well to the 'dirty' chestnut colour of her body.

Being a chestnut and using natural selection as my criteria, I may suggest mating her with a chestnut stallion. She looks the kind that would prefer ' one of her own kind' and as such a chestnut mating is desirable to produce a chestnut offspring.

She has a likeable tail, not too long like Felix The Cat, but in need of a slight trim.  You obviously lashed out a bit with the head collar and it shows.....it was well worth it, you've added a lot of appeal by doing so.

I think this mare would be very comfortable at a sale in Scone....in fact I dare say she'd stand out. She has a good deal of Rory's Jester about her and looks like she may have been a real runner in her day.

She will comfortably sell for $10K, give or take a grand if in foal, if barren she would make $5K.

Best of Luck Wink
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ilalastud View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilalastud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 6:16pm
If this is who I think it is...
 
I think she was bought in 2004 by a good judge for $13,000 empty.
 
If you knock off a couple of years depreciation, then Clem's 5-10k empty is probably fair enough.
 
If she is in foal to Foreplay, you might get a touch better than 10K, but probably not more than his service fee.
 
She is a nice enough type, unattractive chestnur colour, but may have been our in the Hunter sun a lot.
 
Sons of Danehill are a good mating IMHO.
 
But then, I might have the wrong horse...
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willy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 7:39pm
BUCK .. to put it bluntly .. I don't like this mare.
 
She does nothing for me.
 
To upgrade her as a TYPE I would be looking to a stallion with better angulations. A good laid back shoulder, a decent hindquarter, better angulation in the hind legs .. some size .. and some quality.
 
 
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Spider View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 8:11pm
For mine she looks more colonial
 
I think she carries a strong resemblance to a very good racehorse of recent years in Encounter. A pretty average stallion, Encounter was hawked off to China where he would eventually be known as No. 53 with Black Bean Sauce Dead
 
She also has a lot of Gregorian about her, particularly in her hocks.
 
Her fetlocks scream Victorian Era.....in fact i don't believe I've ever seen a mare that has such a likeness to that obscure American sire as this.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grey Way Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by Buck Buck wrote:

Who can make the call on TYPE selection of stallion to fit this mare, what are her conformation faults & finally, what's she worth on type alone?


She's not worth what they're asking for her, thats for sure. 10-12k.
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Bagman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bagman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 9:02pm
Very funny Spider.
I don't have one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yalden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2007 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Buck Buck wrote:

Who can make the call on TYPE selection of stallion to fit this mare, what are her conformation faults & finally, what's she worth on type alone?
 
 
Hi Buck,
 
Faults if thats what you want to call them:
 
light bone
short cannons and pastens
short gaskin
on this angle turned out near side knee
appears weak in the hip area
 
The type of stallion I would go to:
 
More bone
More lenght
and tidy legs
 
Now Buck I suppose you are going to turn around and say she is a group or stakes winner and or producer....Smile
If you don't try, you will always wonder, "What if I had"
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Kilroy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 2:13am
Short cannons a fault?????????????????????????????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breeder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 2:39am
 Buck -- I won't comment as I do not consider myself knowledgible enough to comment type but I will commend you on opening such a thread. It's a great use of technology and this forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 3:52am
Ilala picked her well, she's not mine but has an interesting pedigree.
 
Yeah a bit sick Spider, but probably correct in your assumption & a good guess, she's by encounter.
 
My point is:
 
Kilroy mas making a call about families & he was refering to how one shouldn't pay attention the family lines (correct me Kilroy if i'm wrong), so Kilroy, would you by this mare to breed from?
 
For mine,
1. Too straight in the shoulder for me
2. The stallion would need to have shown he may correct this fault.
3. Price: Without knowing her tail female I would have guessed at $10K or so.
 
But her 2nd dam is Natalma, so what's she worth, does her female line increase her value?
 
Ilala, $13K looks cheap to me.
 
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Kilroy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 4:27am
Buck, you may have mis-interpreted my post.
To clarify-the Bruce Lowe numbering of families held no scientific value at the time it was done as no notice was taken of the number of representatives. i e Family no 1 had the most classic winners , it may have had 10 times as many runners as family no 2-get the drift?
The other matter was the fact that some 'breeders' waffle on about a horse being from a particular family becuse way back in a pedigree there was a Lowe number ascribed to it -it doesn't make sense when there may be 1023 other ancestors on the same pedigree line who have equal [exc the minor m dna] contribution.
These wafflers are [effectively] maintaining that one individual carries more weight than the whole other 1023!
Hope that helps.
Now conformation -as already stated I find short cannons a virtue.
No stallion has ever 'corrected' anything, you pay your money and take your chances and actually the percentage chance of heredity flaws is pretty minor -just like inheriting group one ability from a gr1 stallion.
What you see in the mare before you constitutes but a quarter of the available chromosomes the foal has to draw from.
That said, a mare that throws good correct foals is far more likely to continue the pattern than one that doesn't.
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ilalastud View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilalastud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 4:51am
If 13K looks cheap, you will sleep soundly knowing you bagged a bargain.
 
What would you do with her once she was in your backyard? Sell the foal? Race it? What will you put in foal to, and for what purpose? If you have these answers you can determine how cheap she is.
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willy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 5:19am
For me .. it wouldn't matter how well related the mare was if she failed on some fundamental physical traits. This mare does.
 
She will likely leave her own kind.
 
I would value this mare empty as a give-away.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mel_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 6:35am
Originally posted by Spider Spider wrote:

For mine she looks more colonial
 
I think she carries a strong resemblance to a very good racehorse of recent years in Encounter. A pretty average stallion, Encounter was hawked off to China where he would eventually be known as No. 53 with Black Bean Sauce Dead
 
She also has a lot of Gregorian about her, particularly in her hocks.
 
Her fetlocks scream Victorian Era.....in fact i don't believe I've ever seen a mare that has such a likeness to that obscure American sire as this.
 
 
 
Lol Spider, yep it's easy to follow the photo link and find her pedigree. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mel_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 6:37am
Buck, her 3rd dam is Natalma, I'm tipping it's the skinny branch of the family tree  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hobby Horse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 8:02am
Kilroy
 
I probably should start another thread for this re the Bruce Lowe Nos . I dont understand your point re the direct female line (forget what you call it ) , the bulk of the thoughbred industry buys ,sells and breeds and promotes their horses based on direct female lines.  aka  a sale catalogue .
 
How many times have you heard a trainer say I bought such and such a horse because I know the family ( direct female line) .
 
Your point re the depth of a particular mare in a pedigree in the  female line and how much effect it may have on a pedigree is a valid one . Everyone accepts that families rise and fall . I have a mare that traces to Selene's family and from all i've read and any pictures of her progeny etc , I dont think there is much selene in her  .
 
But where do you draw the line? At what line in the pedigree does the direct female line become irrelavent ?
 
Actually , after reading the article on tbheritage all families should be probably be reclassified Haplotypes  A,B,C etc
 
Thanks Smile  HH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by Hobby Horse Hobby Horse wrote:

 
But where do you draw the line? At what line in the pedigree does the direct female line become irrelavent ? Thanks Smile  HH
 
When does it become irrelevant ?
As mentioned earlier it is quite irrelevant  when someone refers to a Bruce Lowe numbered family.
These numbers were done not last century but the century before!!
Allow 10 years per generation and the number refers to one of 4096 names in the single pedigree chart line.
One in 4096 ain't much-I consider that it is irrelevant Wink
The reason catalogues concentrate on the female line is because the compilers figure most people have knowledge of the male line -after all it is the one advertised and quoted most.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hobby Horse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 7:50pm
Thanks for the reply Kilroy . For me its just a way of grouping families , and once you go a certain way back it is meaningless .But the issue is how far Back ?
 
Thanks Smile  HH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Hobby Horse Hobby Horse wrote:

Thanks for the reply Kilroy . For me its just a way of grouping families , and once you go a certain way back it is meaningless .But the issue is how far Back ?
 
Thanks Smile  HH
 
That's the trouble HH -you refer to horse 'A' as being family number 9 and to horse 'B' as being family number 9 yet they are probably not as closely related as you and I [and I ain't from TasmaniaLOL]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bagman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2007 at 9:18pm
Thats true these days Kilroy, not so much in Bruce Lowes day.
But maybe Bruce was onto something. As stated he classified the families by success ,Derbies,Oaks etc. But why did some matrons throw better stock than others?
Could it have been superior genes?
If so, could it be that the transferance of said genes which- barring mutation- live on indefinatley from Mother to progeny.
Now I dont put a lot of stock in Mr Lowes theory, BUT, if we can further expand research into why/how proteins are converted into energy, and identify the superior MOTHERS who transfer the better genes....maybe we'll come back to ole Bruces work -rejigged and redefined of course- and group the families accordingly......again.
I don't have one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 7:15am
Originally posted by ilalastud ilalastud wrote:

If 13K looks cheap, you will sleep soundly knowing you bagged a bargain.
 
What would you do with her once she was in your backyard? Sell the foal? Race it? What will you put in foal to, and for what purpose? If you have these answers you can determine how cheap she is.
 

Ilala...I only breed to race & the purpose of my game is to ATTEMPT to improve the residual value of the mare. My 1st pre-requisite is a trait that the mare must have, 2nd is that she must be from a good family & last but not least is, there must be a sire to suit conformation & pedigree. I am not so worried about her own confirmation, although it must be reasonable at least.

 

As for Gold Genie, she fits the bill in the in all areas & as far as Stallion goes, I would send her back to Kempinsky.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 7:23am
Originally posted by Kilroy Kilroy wrote:

Buck, you may have mis-interpreted my post.
To clarify-the Bruce Lowe numbering of families held no scientific value at the time it was done as no notice was taken of the number of representatives. i e Family no 1 had the most classic winners , it may have had 10 times as many runners as family no 2-get the drift?
The other matter was the fact that some 'breeders' waffle on about a horse being from a particular family becuse way back in a pedigree there was a Lowe number ascribed to it -it doesn't make sense when there may be 1023 other ancestors on the same pedigree line who have equal [exc the minor m dna] contribution.
These wafflers are [effectively] maintaining that one individual carries more weight than the whole other 1023!
Hope that helps.
Now conformation -as already stated I find short cannons a virtue.
No stallion has ever 'corrected' anything, you pay your money and take your chances and actually the percentage chance of heredity flaws is pretty minor -just like inheriting group one ability from a gr1 stallion.
What you see in the mare before you constitutes but a quarter of the available chromosomes the foal has to draw from.
That said, a mare that throws good correct foals is far more likely to continue the pattern than one that doesn't.
 

Kilroy, I did mis-interpret you earlier comments & will agree with the above about the families.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Mel_ Mel_ wrote:

Buck, her 3rd dam is Natalma, I'm tipping it's the skinny branch of the family tree  LOL
 
Its a winning family Mel....tell me your've got a mare in the back paddock with a bottom line with the following credentials

1st dam

Northern Sister, by Gregorian. 5 wins-2 at 2-from 6f to 8f, 3d Woodbine Hendrie H., Can-2, Woodbine Breeders' Cup H., L. Half-sister to Barzana (dam of GRAY NOT BAY), Eranos (dam of MARATHON). Dam of eleven foals, nine to race, eight winners, inc:-

2nd dam

NATIVE ERA, by Victorian Era. Unraced. Half-sister to NORTHERN DANCER, BORN A LADY (dam of ARROWTOWN, Lady Bonanza), NATIVE VICTOR, REGAL DANCER, Arctic Dancer (dam of LA PREVOYANTE), Raise the Standard (dam of COUP DE FOLIE). Dam of 9 foals, 7 to race, 6 winners, inc:-

What you have is the opportunity to breed back on the top line....if you actually know what that means.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mel_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2007 at 8:22pm
Lol Buck, so I have to have a mare with a better family to be able to comment?  My mare died last year, so I guess I shouldn't comment on any breeding issues?

My comment re the skinny branch was a tongue in cheek poke at her being by the much maligned Encounter, plus herself being unraced etc.

And yes I know what it means to breed back on the top line, lol.  My comment had nothing to do with her potential produce, just her 'branch', very touch on the subject there Buck.

Btw, you're not the owner of the mare are you?  
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