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Champion racemare-Broodmare Flop

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Majestic View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 4:10pm
How many champion racemares have been flops at stud? Personally I would say almost all, with maybe the following exceptions - and these are mostly single progeny exceptions - 
Winona Girl - Special Girl
Chiquita - Eskimo Prince and Comicquita
Analie - Aare
How many other exceptions are out there?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Majestic Majestic wrote:

How many champion racemares have been flops at stud? Personally I would say almost all, with maybe the following exceptions - and these are mostly single progeny exceptions - 
Winona Girl - Special Girl
Chiquita - Eskimo Prince and Comicquita
Analie - Aare
How many other exceptions are out there?


We really need to understand just which mares qualify as champion racemares - race fillies ?

There record is really quite outstanding.




reductio ad absurdum



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Their 




reductio ad absurdum



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 4:13pm
Oh, And what constitutes a flop ?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 4:15pm
If we make a list of the top 100 racemares in Australasian racing history and than compared it with the top 100 racing males in our history I am sure the record stacks up well.

Beer




reductio ad absurdum



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Nostradamus II View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 5:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majestic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 6:48pm
djebel, the question posed was not to compare males and females, instead my aim was to invoke discussion re "champion" mares and their ability to pass on their talents at stud to their progeny. I would like to reference a few races specifically and list mares who won not only that specific races but many other  stakes races over their careers, then went off to stud to fail as a matriarch. I include:
1. Newmarket Hcp - Special, Begonia Belle,Cap D'Antibes, Toy Show,Isca, Miss Moneypenny
2. Lightning Stks - Citius, Maybe Mahal, Storm Queen, Dual Choice,
3. Australian Cup - Let's Elope,Makybe Diva,Leilani
4. Mackinnon Stks - Horlicks, Empire Rose
5. VRC Oaks - Light Fingers, Gipsy Queen, Denise's Joy, Surround, 
6. Melbourne Cup - Light Fingers, Let's Elope, Hi Jinx,Empire Rose, 
7. W.S. Cox Plate - Sunline, Makybe Diva
8. Caulfield Cup - How Now, Mannerism, 
9. AJC Oaks - November Rain, Bounding Away, Research, Triscay, 
10. Golden Slipper - Burst, Bint Marscay, Merlene, 
Just a few to ponder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 6:55pm
Are we talking purely Australian mares , if so does Makybe Diva was bred in Northern Hemisphere , if not maybe add in Ethereal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by Nostradamus II Nostradamus II wrote:

http://www.thoroughbredreview.com/MythoftheFamily.htm



Did they do a study of a group that had racing class and a tip top family behind them ? That should have been the 3rd group.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Majestic Majestic wrote:

djebel, the question posed was not to compare males and females, instead my aim was to invoke discussion re "champion" mares and their ability to pass on their talents at stud to their progeny. I would like to reference a few races specifically and list mares who won not only that specific races but many other  stakes races over their careers, then went off to stud to fail as a matriarch. I include:
1. Newmarket Hcp - Special, Begonia Belle,Cap D'Antibes, Toy Show,Isca, Miss Moneypenny
2. Lightning Stks - Citius, Maybe Mahal, Storm Queen, Dual Choice,
3. Australian Cup - Let's Elope,Makybe Diva,Leilani
4. Mackinnon Stks - Horlicks, Empire Rose
5. VRC Oaks - Light Fingers, Gipsy Queen, Denise's Joy, Surround, 
6. Melbourne Cup - Light Fingers, Let's Elope, Hi Jinx,Empire Rose, 
7. W.S. Cox Plate - Sunline, Makybe Diva
8. Caulfield Cup - How Now, Mannerism, 
9. AJC Oaks - November Rain, Bounding Away, Research, Triscay, 
10. Golden Slipper - Burst, Bint Marscay, Merlene, 
Just a few to ponder.

Again - What constitutes failure ?

How can Horlicks be considered a failure ? Brew

Triscay produced a group 1 winning sprinter.


What constitutes a failure ?






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 7:06pm
For starters:

Horlicks bred G1W Brew and G2W Bubbles
Triscay bred G1W La Baraka and G2W Tsuimai

definitely not failures
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 7:08pm
The FACT of the matter is great racemares far outperform their number at stud.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 7:10pm
Bint Marscay produced G1W Bollinger, G3W Sheraton and G3W Mannington from her first 3 to race
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 7:16pm
Bint Marscay produced Group 1 winner and 2 other Group winners from 4 to race.  
Triscay produced a Group 1 and a Group 2 winner.
Mannerism produced 2 x Group winners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 9:09pm
Denise's Joy produced a G1 winner with her last foal Joie Denise but the list of her decendants who are G1 winners is still growing - Tuesday Joy, More Joyous, Sunday Joy, Euphoria, Miss Danehill etc are the start. If you produce a G1 winner and a dynasty which some stallions would love to have to their name you can't be a failure.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 9:14pm
There's a theory that top class race mares often don't make top broodmares however their progeny do.  Don't know if there's any figures to support this theory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Munga Rangi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by Lordy Lordy wrote:

There's a theory that top class race mares often don't make top broodmares however their progeny do.  Don't know if there's any figures to support this theory.

 
There is an old saying that you should miss the first generation but get on board the daughters of the second...as producers. Again I am not sure of the stats either but I have noticed often that the subsequent generations which have been either unraced or substandard performers can go on to produce multiple stakeswinners or successful sires in their turn.
Caveat emptor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Lordy Lordy wrote:

There's a theory that top class race mares often don't make top broodmares however their progeny do.  Don't know if there's any figures to support this theory.


Look no further than the above mentioned Denise's Joy Wink
Without looking them up, I think Hunza & Leilani qualified & possibly Let's Elope.
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 9:14am
This topic does the rounds every few years and emancipation is another very good example of this phenomenon . There is an article on a breeding website today talking about Romanee Conti who while not a champion was a top racemare herself who in turn produced ethereal . The reason I use that example is that there may be many other factors in play as to why these mares don't produce . Ethereal is by Rythym who was hardly a top line stallion but is the best out of the mare Romanee Contee .
The champion racemares when they retire are at the very top of the commercial tree and as a consequence have a stallion selection unbelievably narrow and they may only visit three or four stallions in their careers . If these stallions don't suit them for any reason or don't produce a Good Group winner people will immediately pull out the failure clause . I would hate the task of producing an upgrade mating to Black Caviar , that's what I would call mission impossible .
It's not the only reason top mares fail I'm sure but I believe it's a contributing factor .



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 9:54am
It could be the same with humans , how many elite sportsman siblings achieve the same or better level of success ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2013 at 9:58am
Also with these animals , how many are treated with Bute which is known to alter humans genetically , so can it wash out a horses genes, has been studies done and are on the net .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 1:01am
Lets Elope is starting to build a little dynasty.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 10:02am
Also sometime Goldey horses who have been very sick ie Tulloch don't perform at stud. Or others like Dancing Brave get sick don't perform and get sent overseas to stud then perform. They can get over all that treatment they get but it might take a few years and most studs give up before that.

Could be with great mares who raced quite a bit it's the latter foals you should be looking at. After all that stress gets out of there systems. Also look at the great mares who raced with problems which had to be treated. Did they underperform at stud? So many variables.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 10:08am
How did the major sickness of ei effect all the horses who got it. Did they underperform for a few years. Did it have no effect.

There are just too many variables in every horse to find the ones who have a clean slate as well as the right genes which will perform at stud. That can depend on the sires available to her also.

The study which would be most interesting is the placegetters in the major Oaks, Guineas and Golden Slipper/Blue Diamond/Newmarket/T J Smith etc. 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Through the years to see just where the best broodmares come from. But as I said before even then you get many brilliant racemares/fillies/colts who get a major injury or illness. You just don't know what each is treated with and how much it took out of them to fight the infliction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 10:34am
Just to contradict the above Wenona Girls second foal was her only stakes winner. Then her family went to the dogs. Nothing for generations. The only branch still performing at is that of her first foal the Todman filly Day Girl(Special Girls full sister).

Day Girl had five fillies. Truly Spoilt (Spoiled Lad), Probe (Gooree King), Daily Planet (Planet Kingdom), Leaderene (Sir Silver Lad) and Touched by Love (Black Zephyr).

Down the track some of the stallions used for various decendants include Rebelgaze, Post Elect, Ministerial, Anchor In, Afleetaffair. Some of whom then never went to stud. There was a filly by Yeats who only had one named foal a gelding. But the line still alive comes through the use of Todman, Gooree King, Vain, Groucho and Filante.

Two greats and three with ability who underperformed at stud. But unlike a lot of the family you don't have Star Kingdom son over Star kingdom son mare over Star Kingdom line sire. Why can't people wait and cross about the 4th or 5th generation.

So the result of the above line of sires is Lady Remlap. Dam of four to race for one stakes winner Manawanui (Oratorio) and one good winner La Remlap (Choisir) and two by the same sires who haven't yet one a race. So it is now up to La Remlap (a filly) to see if the Wenona Girl family can come up with more black type.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee Gee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 10:52am
yep, genarally skips a generation.
 
If you can get hold of a filly from a champion race mare. Then retain that filly for future breeding.
 
When i look at pedigree pages of good recent winners, there have been many G1 winning granddams in that page.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Lordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 11:07am
Originally posted by goldey goldey wrote:

It could be the same with humans , how many elite sportsman siblings achieve the same or better level of success ?
But how many elite sportsmen get to produce 150 kids each year to the top female athletes?  

....NBA players probably get the numbers though I'm not so sure the mating selection criteria is overly scientific.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 12:39pm
I find it hard to be totally convinced on the theory of champion mares not performing at stud and I hope someone has the time to do an historical study .
If you look at Scandinavia as an example ,and again she would not be considered an out and out champion but for me was a top racemare . I believe she placed in top G1 sprints 3 or 4 times and won at the top level . She is the mother of Magnus, Wilander , Arctic Flight and of course the outstanding Broodmare Helsinge .
Helsinge's best progeny are by Bel Esprit and Casino Prince and her lesser performed are by Redoute's Choice . Her best progeny are by the lesser commercial stallions and I still believe stallion selection appears to have a large effect on the outcome .
There are way too many factors in play for me to say unequivocally that champion mares are no good at stud because they were champions ,it may have a contributing factor but generally it doesn't make sense to me .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 12:58pm
It would also be interesting to see an inbreeding index on champion racemares and hence if many have an outcross type of pedigree with some hybrid vigor . Could this be a factor in determining the makeup of some of those champions and thereby making them more difficult to mate correctly .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Lordy Lordy wrote:


Originally posted by goldey goldey wrote:

It could be the same with humans , how many elite sportsman siblings achieve the same or better level of success ?

But how many elite sportsmen get to produce 150 kids each year to the top female athletes?  

....NBA players probably get the numbers though I'm not so sure the mating selection criteria is overly scientific.
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