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carbon tax

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newcastle nobody View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Sep 2010 at 7:48pm
someone please explain that carbon tax issue to this idiot
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gettingbigger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by newcastle nobody newcastle nobody wrote:

someone please explain that carbon tax issue to this idiot


must be more then you and me that don't have a clue , I was waiting for a reply too but no!
 
Say nothing once why say it again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 2:05pm
Put simply, a carbon tax is a levee placed on those who burn carbon as a fuel source. It is to raise revenue for the cleanup of the dirty industry, as well as making those industries less competetive against non carbon burning new industries, to encourage a transition away from carbon burning
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 2:13pm
The revenues raised are ideally used to reimburse consumers for the increased cost of energy in the transition and to go to things like investment incentives to create cleaner energy. It should therefore be a revenue neutral tax, which is one reason it would take some some time to study the effects and hear submissions from all interested parties, to determine the fairest way forward 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Muffin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 2:25pm
Hang on Browndog, I thought studies and what not were useless? At least that was the consensus of the supporters of the NBN. No study needed, just do it. What's changed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by The Muffin Man The Muffin Man wrote:

Hang on Browndog, I thought studies and what not were useless? At least that was the consensus of the supporters of the NBN. No study needed, just do it. What's changed?


I think the question was asked to get a non political explanation of the process. Smile On the politics, I believe Mr Brown and Mr Windsor, the people driving the process have said that a committee process would be enterred to take about 18 months. The Govt wants it ready to go to the next election with. The Greens and Ind may want it faster than that though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Muffin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 3:22pm
I'm actually doing some study on accounting in a carbon constrained environment at the minute, I'll post some information when I get home. I will add though, there is a difference between a carbon tax and a carbon trading scheme. With a carbon tax, if you produce carbon you pay tax. It's simple, but not very popular. With a carbon trading scheme, you are either allocated permits freely or have to purchase them to begin with, then you are able to buy and sell more permits as your business needs. The permits allow you to emit certain levels of carbon. If you know you are going to need more permits, you have to go to the carbon permit market and buy more. If you have a really efficient business and won't use all of the permits allocated to you, you can sell the excess permits on the carbon market.

Australia is leaning towards a carbon trading scheme, though it will undoubtedly be more complex than a straight tax, and will also lend itself to greater opportunity to be manipulated by businesses and their accountants alike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raoul Duke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 4:02pm
Yeah, the problem with an ETS is (a) the comprises/concessions that inevitably occur, which dilute the very purpose of having a market in the first place [the proposed CPRS was an example of this] and (b) it can severely hamper domestic producers because importers without a comparable system in their home country gain a competitive advantage because they don't have to pay for the credits.
 
The benefit of a carbon tax is that it can be applied to imports and you can introduce a rebate for exporters (like the GST) so they're not at a competitive disadvantage.
 
But an widely-applied ETS with no (or at least minimal) concessions is likely to produce a more effective outcome, because it at least caps emissions, whereas a carbon tax does not.
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The Muffin Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Muffin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by Raoul Duke Raoul Duke wrote:

Yeah, the problem with an ETS is (a) the comprises/concessions that inevitably occur, which dilute the very purpose of having a market in the first place [the proposed CPRS was an example of this] and (b) it can severely hamper domestic producers because importers without a comparable system in their home country gain a competitive advantage because they don't have to pay for the credits.
 
The benefit of a carbon tax is that it can be applied to imports and you can introduce a rebate for exporters (like the GST) so they're not at a competitive disadvantage.
 
But an widely-applied ETS with no (or at least minimal) concessions is likely to produce a more effective outcome, because it at least caps emissions, whereas a carbon tax does not.


This is my major concern with the path Australia is taking.

Consider this;

An Australian widget making factory can make widgets for $1.00 before any emissions trading scheme is introduced. A Chinese widget making factory can make widgets for 80c and export them to Australia. Here, the Chinese have a slight price advantage, but the Aussies would be alright because the quality of their product is high and the price differential between the two widgets is not that great.

Australia then  introduces it's emissions trading scheme. This boosts the cost of making the widgets for the Australian company to $1.30, but the Chinese widget is still only 80c because they have no emissions trading scheme or carbon tax in place. Now the Chinese product is looking much more attractive to Australian consumers. The aussie factory has to shed jobs as demand for their product falls. The flow on effect is less people in work, which means less aggregate demand in our economy as more and more people lose their disposable incomes.

The Aussie widget goes up in price to $1.30 because the widget making company has to buy permits, but also because all of the other companies involved with the widget making process have to buy permits as well. This includes the freight company that transports the widgets to the market, the power company that supplies power to the widget making factory, and the packaging company that supplies the widgets are showcased in. The flow on effect is enormous. Even if the widget company were to invest in new technologies that would reduce it's carbon use, and thus lower it's demand for permits, the up front costs of these new technologies would take many years to recoup, and they would be recouped through higher prices.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raoul Duke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 4:25pm
^^
Exactly. So in the short term, whilst there is no widely-applied (i.e. international) ETS, I see a carbon tax as making a hell of a lot more sense if you want to do something on limiting emissions, or at least putting a price on carbon. The CPRS as tabled in parliament last year would have been a disaster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 5:07pm
My feeling is that a tax is the way that will ultimately be taken. I think the Ind and Greens are in no doubt, but the Govt has to shift to a position it is comfortable with. Windsor seemed genuinely surprised that there was any question yesterday.

The Govt is shy of any criticism, which erodes its credibility. Today they were pressed in question time on the tax issue, but couldn't bring themselves to say the word.

It is a ridiculous situation, because the reality is that there will be something in place sooner or later.

I dont like the carbon trading idea. I think this issue should be approached in a non political, bipartisan way that excludes profiteering from the process, and trading credits allows a lot more lattitude in the profiteering angle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by Browndog Browndog wrote:

I dont like the carbon trading idea. I think this issue should be approached in a non political, bipartisan way that excludes profiteering from the process, and trading credits allows a lot more latitude in the profiteering angle. 
 
And for what it's worth I totally agree with the last part of your comment Browndog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Muffin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by Run For Fun Run For Fun wrote:

Originally posted by Browndog Browndog wrote:

I dont like the carbon trading idea. I think this issue should be approached in a non political, bipartisan way that excludes profiteering from the process, and trading credits allows a lot more latitude in the profiteering angle. 
 
And for what it's worth I totally agree with the last part of your comment Browndog.
 
I would agree too, I touched on it earlier. I don't think creating a new market, and all of the bells and whistles that goes along with that, is a fantastic idea. But, I don't think a tax is such a great idea before any of our international competition move either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scamanda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 7:07pm
How do they measure carbon tax? Not just in Australia , but China for instance.
And if we reduce our carbon output to half, does it even effect the total global carbon level enough to make a difference? I think it would be like lighting a cigarette in a bushfire.


Countries like China have no intention of even trying to reduce carbon levels. So a tax, or credit system, is just a rort to make "call me Bob" and his mates feel warm and fuzzy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 7:38pm
Couldn't agree with you more scamanda, a drop in the ocean, if that, in terms of positive environmental effect but will have to impact negatively on Balance Of Trade (think that's the one I mean LOL) & thanks Brown Dog, for the laymans' explanation, far more easily understood Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by scamanda scamanda wrote:

How do they measure carbon tax? Not just in Australia , but China for instance.
And if we reduce our carbon output to half, does it even effect the total global carbon level enough to make a difference? I think it would be like lighting a cigarette in a bushfire.


Countries like China have no intention of even trying to reduce carbon levels. So a tax, or credit system, is just a rort to make "call me Bob" and his mates feel warm and fuzzy.



India have had a tax on both domestic and imported coal for a year now(coal is more than half of their electricity) and China is on track for similar in 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 7:56pm
Its where the govt introduces a new tax that solves nothing, however it helps then stock the parliamentry dining room with better quality wines.
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too many people breathing. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 8:23pm
I dont have a reference to it, but earlier this year I read that China's response to the GFC was half a trillion dollars in infrastructure spending,primarily directed at ecologically friendly projects, including $38Billion on wind turbine and solar energy replacement. I dont think they are sitting on their hands
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 9:15pm
Kevin Dudd and Jumpin Julia should invade those parts of the world who don't burn coal.
[ or do burn it.]
 We need the Tax to fund Australia's First couple as I saw her and Tim Introduced.
Must have sobered him up to stand upright but we must support our elected people.
   A carbon Tax is a great idea for Greenie Bob and all he needs then is a marriage certificate to make it all worthwhile.[ I have 2 that reached thier use by date  he can have ]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by Browndog Browndog wrote:

I dont have a reference to it, but earlier this year I read that China's response to the GFC was half a trillion dollars in infrastructure spending,primarily directed at ecologically friendly projects, including $38Billion on wind turbine and solar energy replacement. I dont think they are sitting on their hands
.
.
.Browndog.....Only for you would I repeat the great secret about this Fixed odds betting .....They say the early bird catches the worm but never forget ....The second Mouse gets the cheese.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Go Flash Go Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by newcastle nobody newcastle nobody wrote:

someone please explain that carbon tax issue to this idiot
 
China has 1400 Coal fired power plants.
Australia has 37.
 
China has no carbon tax.
 
That's all you need to know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

Kevin Dudd and Jumpin Julia should invade those parts of the world who don't burn coal.
[ or do burn it.]
 We need the Tax to fund Australia's First couple as I saw her and Tim Introduced.
Must have sobered him up to stand upright but we must support our elected people.
   A carbon Tax is a great idea for Greenie Bob and all he needs then is a marriage certificate to make it all worthwhile.[ I have 2 that reached thier use by date  he can have ]


Max, your  magnanimousness towards our most famous coiffeur, and sense of civic duty is an inspiration.ClapLOL
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Muffin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:00am
I thought it would be an interesting time to bump this thread.

So Julia, who went to the election saying there would be no carbon tax in this term of Parliament, is set to introduce a carbon tax on 1 July, 2012. What's everyone's thoughts on this issue? It's quite obvious now that Mr B. Brown is pulling the strings with regards to policy, with his new found control of the Senate approaching. Does Julia even have the moral right to introduce such a wide sweeping policy that will effect the lives of every person in this country when she wasn't even voted into power by the people? It's not like she received a mandate to do this, because she said it wasn't going to happen this term. 10,000+ voters have engaged in a poll on the Herald Sun, with the results as follows;

Thanks for voting!

Do you support a price on carbon?

  • Yes 11.94% (1314 votes)
  • No 88.06% (9694 votes)

Total votes: 11008


Obviously this isn't a scientific poll, just a gauge of current cpublic opinion. Hopefully this might be enough to get Julia removed from office and our lives. I'd like to know how much effect Julia thinks this policy is going to have on 'climate change' when the USA, China, & India have no price on carbon, and with our country being one of the largest exporters of coal in the World. Add to this, we won't use nuclear power ourselves. It's all very strange, and would be funny if not so serious.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jazzman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:14am
Wll I'd have voted Yes to that poll. So that can become 1315 to 9694, please.
 
When you say Julia Gillard didn't receive a mandate to introduce wide-sweeping policy, do you mind explaining to me what you see as being her roll as PM, Muffin?
 
Leaders don't always make the most popular decisions, but that of course doesn't mean it is wrong.
 
As a supporter of Govts doing whatever they can to help the environment, I support Ms Gillard all the way on this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 11:58am
Weekdays 5:30am to 9am
listen live podcasts feedback

Carbon Tax poll results

carbon tax poll results

Poll: Carbon price

Do you think Australia should introduce a price on carbon to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

< method="post" ="http://feedback.smh.com.au//voteForAPoll" name="poll" -valible="true"> < name="pollId" value="2201037" =""> < name="indexPath" value="http://www.smh.com.au/polls/business/carbon-price/20110224-1b6bx.#poll" ="">
Here's an even better one Muffy. The fair and balanced  Allan Jones radio 2gb poll
The more even SMH poll had it 44% to 53% with 3% undecided

Depends where you look with polls
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Muffin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 12:01pm
It's more of a comment that relates to Howard introducing the GST jazzman, he went to the election with the GST as a clear issue, and the voters knew what Howard was going to do when they cast their vote.

I don't think she has any right to now re-introduce this deeply unpopular policy, especially when she wasn't voted in by the people. She was made Queen by 3 Independents and a green, with two of those Independents now quite unpopular with large portions of their own electorates due to their decison to support Labor. Where is her 'mandate' from the people to be able introduce such a policy? You might say she doesn't need one, and that's fair enough, but surely you can't support her deceiving the public on such an enormous issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wortel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 12:10pm
Gillard is a joke. No idea what to do.

How about real money being put into cleaner energy?
We don't even pollute really, its too expensive to have that kind of heavy industry here.
 
We're already taxing the miners. If the mining resources tax isn't enough then they got it wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jazzman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by The Muffin Man The Muffin Man wrote:

It's more of a comment that relates to Howard introducing the GST jazzman, he went to the election with the GST as a clear issue, and the voters knew what Howard was going to do when they cast their vote.

I don't think she has any right to now re-introduce this deeply unpopular policy, especially when she wasn't voted in by the people. She was made Queen by 3 Independents and a green, with two of those Independents now quite unpopular with large portions of their own electorates due to their decison to support Labor. Where is her 'mandate' from the people to be able introduce such a policy? You might say she doesn't need one, and that's fair enough, but surely you can't support her deceiving the public on such an enormous issue?
 
Sure, the people will decide whether she has done the right or the wrong thing with her decision on putting a price on carbon.
I just struggle to understand why you don't believe she has a mandate to make sweeping changes. As PM she will be judged on her decisions, and I'm sure she accepts that, but as PM surely she does have the right - regardless of how people assess her getting there - to make tough calls. You can't just have a PM who never makes big decisions because it was a tight election.
Regardless of what you think of the independents and the green siding with the ALP to put them in power, that's our system, so we must suck it up and deal with it. And, as I said, Ms Gillard will be judged accordingly.
And yeah, if your Herald Sun (was it?) poll is any indication, she won't like the stance of the Australian people. Who knows though, maybe there are other polls out there with different results?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Muffin Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 1:27pm
Yes it was the Herald Sun, Victoria's most popular newspaper.

How does she have any right to introduce this policy when she said, days before the election, that it was not going to be an issue they would deal with this term? Then, she falls into Government and decides to re-introduce the same deeply unpopular policy she said just days before the election she would not do? On the massive, country changing issues, the public needs to know the position of the parties before they vote, and be able to feel confident that these positions won't change without the public being able to change their minds as well. We have accountability every four years when an election rolls around, but by that time lies have already been acted upon and decisions made that can't be undone, so what good is that to the general public? A carbon tax / CPRS will be a change to the architecture of the economy, and won't be able to be rolled back with any kind of ease at all, so, like the GST, it should be an issue the population knows the stance of each respective party before they enter the polling booth.

Obviously she does have the 'right' to introduce the bill legally etc, I'm talking more about morally and ethically I guess. I also bet that's how fair chunk of the population is thinking as well. Hopefully this is the sword that this incompetent lady falls upon, the Independents stop backing the Labor Party, and we go off to an election again.
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