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Breeding Gurus - Stallion Noms

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Mountain Man View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 8:11am
I'm in awe of the knowledge you guys glean.  I am a novice breeder who selects more on "type" than anything.  I have ventured into three mares.  All cheap on their third foal and haven't produced anything of note to date as they are early.  But just interested to know more about the matching of generational breeding.
The mares are in NZ and have just been served for the season.  French and Disneyland by O'Reilly and a Pins mare Knockout.  My desire is to breed a horse that gets over ground as I think these mares display staying characteristics in type.  Just wondering from a breeding perspective if you see any NZ horses that match well with these mares under the $15K mark? Thanks
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furious View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 10:38am
I operate only on the pedigree side of things but you have three mares with some nice families behind them.  

Knockout Centaine looks like a sire the family liked so you could try Alamosa who is out of a Centaine mare giving you a 3f x 4m cross.  This Starquita line has plenty of middle distance classic winners to its name also.  You also have to look at the dam of Knockout and her best foal was by O'Reilly and Alamosa is by O'Reilly.  Or for staying ability you can't go past Sir Tristram/Zabeel so you have the young Derby winner Preferment who is from the same female line as Savabeel (different branch).  Savabeel is there as a sire of a couple of black type horses from your female line.  While Beau Sosvereign (in Preferment) is the same family as Montjeu (sire of Tavistock) Noholme (in Savabeel) and Todman (in Centaine) Plus you have the Danehill/Snippets/Bletchingly match with seems to be made in horse heaven.

Disneyland is a tad harder.  But maybe you could try Street Cry blood like Per Incanto or Shocking.  Or you could look for the Nureyev blood which produced Starcraft (or come to Australia to get Starcraft blood).  Nureyev is also in Zabeel so that brings in his line ie Preferment and Zed or even Turn Me Loose with Nureyev through his sires dam.  As Centaine blood has also appeared to cross you can also add those to the list or another unproven one of these is Mongolian Khan.

French I'd just try the best of the Redoute's Choice line sires - Burgundy, Nadeem or Duelled.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 5:02pm
Hmmm... French is closely related to Staging, dam of Excites, Duporth & Tickets.

Further to Furious' suggestion, perhaps the two from the Redoute's family direct work - Niagara or Echoes of Heaven? Both seem to be able to throw a horse that covers a bit of a trip...
Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren & Speed Hero.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 5:38pm
KNOCKOUT - A fairly moderate family of late with most recent successes being in Asia with Titanium and Nandowra in Singapore.  Before that we had Astimonti who was successful in Hong Kong.  Locally it was Zanetta who was the most prominent.  If we delve back a little we see that this is the family of a stallion called Roi Normand who was a group 1 winner in the US, who stood in South America where he sired two very good horses in Riboletta and Super Power.  Roi Normand incidentally had a pedigree that had no duplications within the first six generations, so I am going to suggest that close inbreeding is not necessarily a strategy that we should be pursuing in this family.  In fact, the lack of close inbreeding is something that is repeated through all of these more successful family members.  What we also can notice in the cases of Titanium and Nandowra for instance, is the presence of a noted stamina influence through the stallion.  In the case of Titanium, he is by Tavistock, a son of Montjeu in turn a son of Sadler's Wells, and Nandowra by Savabeel a son of Zabeel.  In spite of this, the family is not really a staying one, although we might almost think it is in modern times.  In general, the most successful range is the 1600m-2000m range of late, although Roi Normand did win over 2400m, and his progeny also won over this type of distance.  My point though is that it is not the family to be breeding the 3200m type.

Even though at the more expensive range, Reliable Man appeals as a solid mating.  A lot of very classic international bloodlines, and of course his damsire is Sadler's Wells.  Rip Van Winkle is by Gallileo, another fairly notable stamina influence also by Sadler's Wells is another option, although perhaps not quite as strong overall with more lines of Northern Dancer complicating the pedigree a little.  

Of the unproven brigade, Preferment by Zabeel is certainly an option, but at the price I would probably look more at the ones above who seem better value.  Still, an interesting mating that offers quite a bit.
Shocking is certainly one that can be considered, but getting more into speed lines from my perspective with the presence of Silly Season a focus.  A similar sort of suggestion is Telperion who is also by Street Cry, and at a fee of only $5000, he could be the stallion that would fit the budget best.  One feature of the mating is the presence of Nijinksy in the stallion, and Roi Normand daughters had a deal of success at stud with Royal Academy.   Interestingly, a daughter also produced a stakeswinner by Vettori, a son of Machiavellian like Street Cry.

I will get to the others as time allows.
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Mountain Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 5:56pm
Thanks all.  I am not sure what you guys think of the Nicks programs, however they posted a 20/20 mating with Adelaide.  I am a fan of Gallileo and Sadlers Wells.  As you mentioned Progold Rip Van Winkle was an option.
As a question how much influence does the dams damline have?  Or do you purely look for any duplications anywhere?
I am not adverse to bringing one back here if an Aussie nom was better.  But very happy with your suggestions.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 5:58pm
Also, I was encouraged to look at the Lunchtime influence for the Pins mare knockout.  Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 7:55pm
Disneyland is an interesting mare.  She is from the family of Starcraft, but perhaps even more importantly given the intention to breed a stayer, we see that it is also the family of the wonderful galloper, Taras Bulba and his brother, Turfcutter.  It is also the family that gave us The Hind who won the Adelaide Cup.

Having said that, I am finding it difficult to really find the right mating for the mare.  There really are only limited stamina lines, and none are currently jumping out at me as the old ANZ staying lines are getting hard to find.  The Rock 'n' Pop mating is a solid one, and is a chance of producing a reasonable runner.  A cheap option is an interesting prospect in What's The Story who could be worth a punt.  Another is Complacent who is a Darley stallion who was a decent racehorse from a good family, even if not what one may call a stallion family.  A mare that will need revisiting to see if we can't find the best option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 9:57pm
Mountain Man, I'd stick to mountain Women If I were you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2018 at 10:07pm
French is from the family of Staging, a daughter of Success Express.  I am not sure that breeding a stayer is the ideal option from this mare, as you would certainly be looking for one that will perform over shorter distances that might just extend a little.  She seems a mare that will suit a range of stallions, but on first view, the stallion I would look to send her to would be Savabeel, but of course he is well and truly out of the price range.  What's My Story is the only son of Savabeel at stud so could be considered.  Unfortunately, it is probably too big a risk I think for the mare as there are lots of other options.  This is a good opportunity to talk about the physical characteristics of the mare.  She has had three foals, two to the same stallion, so we should have a reasonable idea of whether there are any physical characteristics we should be looking to remedy in particular.  We have had recent stakes horses in the family from a range of stallions including Success Express, Danewin, Redoute's Choice, Encosta De Lago, Salieri and Captain Sonador so there are plenty of different ways we can look at the family.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 7:36am
Good advice Aurealis.
 
French is to my eye the best type of the three.  She has thrown two colts in a row now.  The yearling is a good type also - by Rock N Pop. 
Why Redoutes Choice line? Is it Danehill?  If so have I had this through Rock N Pop?
Any reason Shocking wouldn't be a reasonable choice for her?  I like his style and he has throw a few stakes performers and a G1 to date?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 8:12am
MM
I loved him as a racehorse and hope he makes it as a stallion.
If you wanted some Lunchtime blood why not consider Complacent?

He won the Gloaming, Spring Champion and desperately unlucky when 2nd in the Derby.
Came back from injury and smashed a good field in the Chelmsford.
A stayer with good speed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 8:15am
I think it's the female line and Danehill.  Last Tycoon's sire Try My Best and Redoute's are from the same female family.  But likewise Danewin is also Danehill but this time with a 9c female line.  You can get that through Bletchingly in Redoute's but hes isn't in Fastnet Rock.  Each is slightly different in what they bring to the pedigree.  As storm siren also said above you could try just for the female side of the family and opt out of the Danehill as Encosta has also worked with the family.

When I say Snippets/Danehill/Bletchingly in Knockout that of course means Lunchtime.  He is just usually found through his best son Snippets these days.  I don't mind Shocking either and think he would work with O'Reilly hense the idea with Disneyland your other O'Reilly mare.  O'Reilly seem to through a refined animal so a bit of a solid type won't hurt.  Another reason for the Redoute's blood to work.  Sometimes they are too big.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 9:42am
FWIW , although you would like to breed a stayer sometimes a spinting sire can throw the odd great stayer , i think go for what has the most possibility to be a great match and get a winner first , i like French the most of your herd, and my primary pick would be Derryn as he delivers Snippets blood in buckets , secondly you could try Charm Spirit as he brings Chop Chop into the female line , whilst not getting Success Express you get a male line of his female blood line , also some nice staying blood up close there.
Probably the key in a lot of stayers can be as simple as out crossing to the Sixth Generation and then filling the engine room with quality stamina infuences .
Bart Cummings would look to Melley and Summertime to be key staying influences .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:06pm
Cheers.  Makes good reading.
Any thoughts on Jimmy choux for Knockout.  I take on board the reasoning of staying clear of inbreeding, but is Centaine too close here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:11pm
3 x 4 isn't too close particularly f x m.  But he's started very quietly.  That is the query.  Not all have what it takes but it would be a very interesting mating on paper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 8:44pm
Notably Pins has produced some nice stock from O'reilly mares.Not sure on the vice versa .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 9:00am
Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

MM
I loved him as a racehorse and hope he makes it as a stallion.
If you wanted some Lunchtime blood why not consider Complacent?

He won the Gloaming, Spring Champion and desperately unlucky when 2nd in the Derby.
Came back from injury and smashed a good field in the Chelmsford.
A stayer with good speed



I tried to do one of the on line analysis with Complacent but knockout wasn’t in the system.
Rather oddly the other 2 mares were
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 11:53pm
Thanks for your help All.
I will digest.  I'm currently searching sires for French that have Danehill and Snippets in the sire.  Any ideas?
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