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Black Caviar Looked Awful?

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Discohips23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Discohips23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Do you think there maybe some embellishment going on  ?
ahhhhhh, definitely
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 5:58pm
Well fwiw I see absolutely no reason why Moody would talk pork pies about such a matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote therealkramer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Well fwiw I see absolutely no reason why Moody would talk pork pies about such a matter.

3 reasons off the top of my head
 

1. She avoided carrying huge weights which would have enhanced her legacy. She also avoided serious challenges as her career wound down.
2.Her UK run was below par
3. The revelations that she ran almost her entire career on Altrenogest as well as in an era where steroids were not prohibited away from raceday
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by therealkramer therealkramer wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Well fwiw I see absolutely no reason why Moody would talk pork pies about such a matter.

3 reasons off the top of my head
 

1. She avoided carrying huge weights which would have enhanced her legacy. She also avoided serious challenges as her career wound down.
2.Her UK run was below par
3. The revelations that she ran almost her entire career on Altrenogest as well as in an era where steroids were not prohibited away from raceday


1) she carried a mares weight record to win a Newmarket ( in race record time)

2) umm... that’s the point

3) what’s your point here? All her competitors raced under the same rules
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 6:45pm
Exactly Judge.

Almost not to mention the irrelevance of her treatments over time in respect of the core issue under debate here, ie the truth or otherwise of Moody's specific claim regarding legal pre-race treatments and more critically the alleged incompetency of a UK veterinarian in post-treatment bandaging.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote therealkramer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Exactly Judge.

Almost not to mention the irrelevance of her treatments over time in respect of the core issue under debate here, ie the truth or otherwise of Moody's specific claim regarding legal pre-race treatments and more critically the alleged incompetency of a UK veterinarian in post-treatment bandaging.



It's not irrelevant when those treatments were forbidden in the UK-the site of her worst career performance. Coincidence? Where she sits in terms of worldwide greatness is probably more debated overseas than it is here. She dodged the chance to win a 2nd Newmarket with 61-61.5kg-which would have given us some gauge on her position against the likes of Vain, Berborough etc. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote therealkramer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Originally posted by therealkramer therealkramer wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Well fwiw I see absolutely no reason why Moody would talk pork pies about such a matter.

3 reasons off the top of my head
 

1. She avoided carrying huge weights which would have enhanced her legacy. She also avoided serious challenges as her career wound down.
2.Her UK run was below par
3. The revelations that she ran almost her entire career on Altrenogest as well as in an era where steroids were not prohibited away from raceday


1) she carried a mares weight record to win a Newmarket ( in race record time)

2) umm... that’s the point

3) what’s your point here? All her competitors raced under the same rules

The revisionist history is not intended to enhance her record against those that she beat 25 times. It's meant to add weight to her record when compared to the all time greats. What weight did Berborough carry in the Newmarket? You see, the injury narrative gives her an out and attempts to leapfrog the deeds of past champions who didn't baulk in the face of adversity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by therealkramer therealkramer wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Exactly Judge.

Almost not to mention the irrelevance of her treatments over time in respect of the core issue under debate here, ie the truth or otherwise of Moody's specific claim regarding legal pre-race treatments and more critically the alleged incompetency of a UK veterinarian in post-treatment bandaging.



It's not irrelevant when those treatments were forbidden in the UK-the site of her worst career performance. Coincidence? Where she sits in terms of worldwide greatness is probably more debated overseas than it is here. She dodged the chance to win a 2nd Newmarket with 61-61.5kg-which would have given us some gauge on her position against the likes of Vain, Berborough etc. 



She did not need to carry that sort of weight to be compared with those horses. She is up there with them.

There is absolutely no point in pointing out handicap efforts without pointing out who such and such defeated.

Vain was beaten twice wasn't he ? What were the excuses ? 




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote therealkramer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by therealkramer therealkramer wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Exactly Judge.

Almost not to mention the irrelevance of her treatments over time in respect of the core issue under debate here, ie the truth or otherwise of Moody's specific claim regarding legal pre-race treatments and more critically the alleged incompetency of a UK veterinarian in post-treatment bandaging.



It's not irrelevant when those treatments were forbidden in the UK-the site of her worst career performance. Coincidence? Where she sits in terms of worldwide greatness is probably more debated overseas than it is here. She dodged the chance to win a 2nd Newmarket with 61-61.5kg-which would have given us some gauge on her position against the likes of Vain, Berborough etc. 





There is absolutely no point in pointing out handicap efforts without pointing out who such and such defeated.





That's the whole point of handicapping though. To carry weight and defy the handicap is the mark of greatness. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by therealkramer therealkramer wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by therealkramer therealkramer wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Exactly Judge.

Almost not to mention the irrelevance of her treatments over time in respect of the core issue under debate here, ie the truth or otherwise of Moody's specific claim regarding legal pre-race treatments and more critically the alleged incompetency of a UK veterinarian in post-treatment bandaging.



It's not irrelevant when those treatments were forbidden in the UK-the site of her worst career performance. Coincidence? Where she sits in terms of worldwide greatness is probably more debated overseas than it is here. She dodged the chance to win a 2nd Newmarket with 61-61.5kg-which would have given us some gauge on her position against the likes of Vain, Berborough etc. 





There is absolutely no point in pointing out handicap efforts without pointing out who such and such defeated.





That's the whole point of handicapping though. To carry weight and defy the handicap is the mark of greatness. 

I have never agreed with this.

How much weight do they have to carry in defeat to still retain their greatness ?




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote therealkramer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by therealkramer therealkramer wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by therealkramer therealkramer wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Exactly Judge.

Almost not to mention the irrelevance of her treatments over time in respect of the core issue under debate here, ie the truth or otherwise of Moody's specific claim regarding legal pre-race treatments and more critically the alleged incompetency of a UK veterinarian in post-treatment bandaging.



It's not irrelevant when those treatments were forbidden in the UK-the site of her worst career performance. Coincidence? Where she sits in terms of worldwide greatness is probably more debated overseas than it is here. She dodged the chance to win a 2nd Newmarket with 61-61.5kg-which would have given us some gauge on her position against the likes of Vain, Berborough etc. 





There is absolutely no point in pointing out handicap efforts without pointing out who such and such defeated.





That's the whole point of handicapping though. To carry weight and defy the handicap is the mark of greatness. 

I have never agreed with this.

How much weight do they have to carry in defeat to still retain their greatness ?



It's open to interpretation. There are obvious variable because the handicap assumes each horse irt afforded the perfect run in transit. The fact remains, Black Caviar(58kg) beat Crystal Lilly(50kg) by 3L in the '11 Newmarket after trouncing her by 6L hard held-possibly 10L superior-in the Lightning. Could she have beaten Hay List in the '12 Newmarket if she'd carried 61.5kg and defied a 5.5kg swing at the weights after a 1.75L victory in the Lightning? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:31pm
Probably not. Hence it is crazy to have to achieve that to retain greatness. 

No, She is an immortal of our sport and did not need to carry death defying weights to prove it. 


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote therealkramer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:39pm
I agreee. If she'd been beaten a short neck by Hay List and [ossibly even edged by Buffering, that wouldn't have lessened her greatness. She's still better than both those horses. They chose to avoid that possibilty and have to deal with the what ifs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:41pm
Unfortunately Kramer has always been a glass half empty contributor.

ps it's absolute nonsense to claim that her treatments in Oz would be banned in the UK, particularly given her knee treatment before the big race was entirely accepted over there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I suppose we're supposed to admire him or something but the obvious question is why did you keep racing her if she was that unsound? Hope you enjoyed the glory putting her out there. That sort of exploitation makes me sick, but hey I love horses!


During the conversation, Terry Bailey was incredulous as to what issues are dealt with to keep these horses going & he then quoted Hawkes had told him very similar about Octagonal.
There was no embellishment or chest beating, simply stating facts & what an amazing mare she was.
I think the general public would be astonished by much of what occurs in racing stables, large & small.
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 8:13pm
I hate the whole 'didn't carry the big weights' garbage.

Treve carried 58.5kg at most, superstar. Enable 58kg at most, superstar. Zenyatta, 58.5kg. Even the current BiTW Winx has only ever carried 57kg at most.

None of these horses records are diminished cause they didn't lump 61kg in a handicap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I suppose we're supposed to admire him or something but the obvious question is why did you keep racing her if she was that unsound? Hope you enjoyed the glory putting her out there. That sort of exploitation makes me sick, but hey I love horses!


During the conversation, Terry Bailey was incredulous as to what issues are dealt with to keep these horses going & he then quoted Hawkes had told him very similar about Octagonal.
There was no embellishment or chest beating, simply stating facts & what an amazing mare she was.
I think the general public would be astonished by much of what occurs in racing stables, large & small.

So far through the wonderful career of Winx a hair has not been out of place. It will be interesting to hear 5 years down the track if that was in fact the cace ?

I know with Black Caviar she got a back injury in her Danehill victory however after that the only thing I remember was being told constantly that should there be any issue at all they would pull up stumps.

I realise they have to keep mum due Stewards overreacting in Australia but they were insistent in the UK that all was fine and anything bad and she would not run.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Einstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I suppose we're supposed to admire him or something but the obvious question is why did you keep racing her if she was that unsound? Hope you enjoyed the glory putting her out there. That sort of exploitation makes me sick, but hey I love horses!


During the conversation, Terry Bailey was incredulous as to what issues are dealt with to keep these horses going & he then quoted Hawkes had told him very similar about Octagonal.
There was no embellishment or chest beating, simply stating facts & what an amazing mare she was.
I think the general public would be astonished by much of what occurs in racing stables, large & small.

So far through the wonderful career of Winx a hair has not been out of place. It will be interesting to hear 5 years down the track if that was in fact the cace ?

I know with Black Caviar she got a back injury in her Danehill victory however after that the only thing I remember was being told constantly that should there be any issue at all they would pull up stumps.

I realise they have to keep mum due Stewards overreacting in Australia but they were insistent in the UK that all was fine and anything bad and she would not run.


No, I think the general public would be as disgusted as some of us about the welfare of the horses being put 2nd to racing. As for embellishment, no, as its also in the book, and ive also pointed her injuries out pre ascot on here before from an article that was published awhile ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atreus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 9:15pm
If Moody had said Black Caviar had injury problems before the Ascot run then I would believe him now.  But he did not say this instead he said the exact opposite.  These are just excuses made up after the fact for her underwhelming Ascot performance

Here is what Moody was saying before the Ascot run

"She's the fittest I've had her in the past 24 months. Her work has been very pleasing since arriving here. I couldn't be happier."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by Atreus Atreus wrote:

If Moody had said Black Caviar had injury problems before the Ascot run then I would believe him now.  But he did not say this instead he said the exact opposite.  These are just excuses made up after the fact for her underwhelming Ascot performance

Here is what Moody was saying before the Ascot run

"She's the fittest I've had her in the past 24 months. Her work has
been very pleasing since arriving here. I couldn't be happier."



“Yeah I’m not particularly happy with her. I’m just trying to hold her together before her big assignment. But to be perfectly honest I think I’ve may have got this one wrong.”

Said no trainer ever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2018 at 10:57pm
Well, no matter what Moody did or didnt do/say,  or what weights came into it.  You can never take away her record for being one tough sheila .    She beat them fair and square. 
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rem286 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 12:44am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I suppose we're supposed to admire him or something but the obvious question is why did you keep racing her if she was that unsound? Hope you enjoyed the glory putting her out there. That sort of exploitation makes me sick, but hey I love horses!


During the conversation, Terry Bailey was incredulous as to what issues are dealt with to keep these horses going & he then quoted Hawkes had told him very similar about Octagonal.
There was no embellishment or chest beating, simply stating facts & what an amazing mare she was.
I think the general public would be astonished by much of what occurs in racing stables, large & small.

So far through the wonderful career of Winx a hair has not been out of place. It will be interesting to hear 5 years down the track if that was in fact the cace ?

I know with Black Caviar she got a back injury in her Danehill victory however after that the only thing I remember was being told constantly that should there be any issue at all they would pull up stumps.

I realise they have to keep mum due Stewards overreacting in Australia but they were insistent in the UK that all was fine and anything bad and she would not run.



You may recall she required hoof filler toward the end of her Autumn campaign this year?  I have it on good authority that not many other horses if any could have performed like she did with the damage to her hoof wall
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote therealkramer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 1:38am
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Unfortunately Kramer has always been a glass half empty contributor.

ps it's absolute nonsense to claim that her treatments in Oz would be banned in the UK, particularly given her knee treatment before the big race was entirely accepted over there.

Your barely contained hated of me aside, there is nothing about glass half empty or glass half full. We were robbed of seeing exactly how good Black Caviar was. The weight doesn't stop the good ones winning the Newmarket. It was her fav track, in her best distance range and flat as a tack. Yaah she won the first one but Hay List was waiting the next year. They dodged him, pure and simple. If you think meaningless WFA victories in Adelaide adds anything to racing-or BC's legacy) then good luck to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 7:44am
Hoof filler is merely to hold the shoe on. It would cause Winx no more discomfort than false fingernails would a person. There's a huge difference between managing the wear and tear of these high performance equine athletes and sending out a structurally unsound horse to perform for you. I've spent a lot of time defending racing against the wild eyed animal welfare types who thankfully obsess on all the wrong, and easily defendable, issues like the whip for example. This particular issue I can't defend . I know how hard the good ones try for you and it's seem like the ultimate betrayal to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 8:07am
I'm not sure if "dodged Haylist" or "ultimate betrayal" made me laugh harder. Either way, it looks like same forumites who couldn't stand this horse (for whatever reason) when she was racing still haven't gotten over her. Time to move on people...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 8:42am
Possibly Gay3 would know a bit more than me on subjects like this.  But I think every horse has issues which the trainers keep a close eye on.  An athlete usually has a few niggles.  A top athlete who time and time again goes above the call has to have some niggles.  Black Caviar was built like a bouncer all muscle etc.  But she wasn't the build that glides over the turf or is light and wiry.  She pulled muscles on more than one occasion etc.  With her bulk she must of felt her racing.  So yes a trainer says one thing and hopes.  They know they are treating the problem and it is responding or something the horse can carry and race with.  But if they say anything then the public would of called for a stop immediately.  So do we leave it to the trainers and their vets to say - yes they can race - or do we just know best!  I kind of believe him.  He spent the whole of Black Caviar's career chain smoking.  I think the pressure was there and he carried that so the rest of us could enjoy a marvelous sprint mare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote therealkramer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 11:48am
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

I'm not sure if "dodged Haylist" or "ultimate betrayal" made me laugh harder. Either way, it looks like same forumites who couldn't stand this horse (for whatever reason) when she was racing still haven't gotten over her. Time to move on people...

So you think the 5.5kg weight swing in Hay List's favour had nothing to do with it? I'm sorry, but if you want to be counted as possibly the best sprinter ever, you accept that challenge, you don't run from it. She beat him by 1.75L in the Lightning-if 2.5kg = 1 length, it would have been a close thing on weights and measures. They favoured soft kills and the unbeaten streak which has been undermined by Winx and surprise surprise the narrative about her 'injuries' is all of a sudden revealed. I don't want to hear anyone horse that raced against a virtual cripple(Hay List) offer up injuries as an excuse. That's the only thing laughable in this thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adolphus twirk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 12:18pm
She was well placed. The argument she avoided Hay List is spurious. She also avoided being beaten by not being run in the Cox Plate. But hey.....who knows?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 2:19pm
Sorry therealkramer you are using mares and gelding rates.  Different kettle of fish.  Different to a handicap.  They ran with equal weights for their age and sex in any SW or WFA race they contested.  Haylist was a great horse and he almost broke her in that Lightning - she had to do something no horse before or since has done in breaking 10s to beat him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Balciano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 2:25pm
From memory she backed up back from the 1400 metres of the Orr to the 1000 metre Lightning in the space of 7 days. If they were looking for easy wins or soft kills I can think of easier ways to go about it, particularly against a horse as great as Hay List.



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