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Big Mare, First Foal?

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StormSiren View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 8:46pm
So, still have a while to figure it out, however we will be breeding Storm Siren next season (2017). While I've done a stack of research into what families/duplications etc might suit, the more pressing issue is addressing conformation faults to try and get a nice type.

Storm is a very big mare.. closing in on 17hh if not that, and has good muscle. However, she has a long, weak back, has never had much of a neck on her, and can stand camped under (think this might be due in part to back). None of it hurt her too much on the track with 4 wins and $100k prize money, but it'd be good to correct it.

My question is, does stallion height matter as much with a first foal? My instinct is to go smaller (and nearly every stallion will be)' however there is one that I think that will suit that's looks great with the exception of decent height (16.2hh). Is it fair to expect a first foal to be on the small side, and this not to be a drawback? Or is that a misconception? Over to the floor (and forumnites)
Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren & Speed Hero.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2016 at 9:16pm
Budget?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 5:35am
Still being discussed but probably around $25k, give or take.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 9:56am
Sell or breednetstudbio to race ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 9:58am
Bloody hell, try again. Sell or breed to race .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 10:34am
Will be both, but looking to sell the first one. While there are a lot of city performers on her page it's light on blacktype hence trying to get a good commercial sire. Family has had its best horses when families 3 and 16 are in play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 11:08am
Have a few that I like.. I think Hallowed Crown & War could both work but want to wait on them. Animal Kingdom looks good but is fairly tall... have quite a few on the list other than them as well...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 11:23am
I don't know much about build Storm Siren but maybe a smaller sprinting type to strengthen up the back.  One of interest could be Time for War who give you an Eight Carat cross 5m x 4f.  Looks interesting on paper anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 11:34am
above should read 5m x 4m.  How big was Deep Field that has the Cotehele House cross 5f x 4m.

Fighting Sun gives you Fappiano (16) 4f x 5m, Best Western 4m x 5f and two year old speed.  He also has the 1/2 brother Northfields to your Habitat

Or you could look at those stallions know to throw good types ie I am Invincible (too dear but maybe a son would do), Lonhro (once again a son)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 11:47am
Likewise new boys Olympic Glory, Toronado, Super One and Deep Impact (not sure of build of of those)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 12:07pm
Olympic Glory, Super One and Real Impact are all on my radar.. but for Storm's first foal would like to get a stallion fourth or fifth season to get a bit of a guide on how the progeny are going/being received in the market. Unfortunately, a lot of the seasoned pros are getting quite long in the tooth so I'm a little weary as I want the horse to be a runner as well as get a price at the sales...they seem to get a bit hit and miss as the year tick over...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 12:17pm
Here's her pedigree for those interested...

Best horses in the extended family were mile plus runners... went back further than normal with her as her fifth and sixth dams only had the one foal, and her seventh dam had just two. Before that, the family produced Rising Fast, Silver Phantom, Ring Joe, Sir Blink... so 1600-3200m horses.

STORM SIREN  (AUS) gr. F, 2011 {1-b} DP = 2-5-3-0-0 (10) DI = 5.67   CD = 0.90 - GSV = 52.00 - 18 Starts, 4 Wins, 3 Places, 3 Shows Career Earnings: $96,330
EXCITES (AUS)
b. 2003 (27)
10-1-2-2
A$528,050
DANEWIN (AUS)
b. 1991 (45)
31-13-7-2
A$2,031,636
DANEHILL (USA)
b. 1986 (82.41)
9-4-1-2
$321,065
2398 f, 1918 r, 1398 w, 347 SW
AEI 3.55, CI 2.01
DANZIG (USA)
b. 1977 [IC] (82.42)
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)b. 1961 [BC]2-d
PAS DE NOM (USA)br. 1968 7-a
RAZYANA (USA)
b. 1981
HIS MAJESTY (USA)b. 1968 [C]4-d
SPRING ADIEU (CAN)b. 1974 2-d
COTEHELE HOUSE (GB)
blk/br. 1980
Unraced
14 f, 11 r, 9 w, 2 SW
MY SWANEE (GB)
gr. 1963 (36.04)
PETITION (GB)b. 1944 16-h
GREY RHYTHM (GB)gr. 1954 8-j
EIGHT CARAT (GB)*
blk. 1975
PIECES OF EIGHT (IRE)br. 1963 3-o
KLAIRESSA (GB)dkb/br. 19699-c
STAGING (AUS)
b. 1994
41-10-4-4
A$1,186,310
SUCCESS EXPRESS (USA)
dkb/br. 1985 (45)
17-4-2-4
$835,359
HOLD YOUR PEACE (USA)
b. 1969 (70.34)
SPEAK JOHN (USA)b. 1958 [BI]1-l
BLUE MOON (USA)b. 1948 12-b
AU PRINTEMPS (USA)
b. 1979
DANCING CHAMP (USA)b. 1972 4-r
LORGNETTE (IRE)ch. 1964 17-b
CINERAMA (AUS)
b. 1986
??-2-?-?
BEST WESTERN (AUS)
ch. 1978 (27)
BLETCHINGLY (AUS)br. 1970 7-a
GREASE PAINT (AUS)ch. 19702-b
BOLD BRIDGET (AUS)
b. 1974
BOLD FLIP (USA)b. 1968 9-b
BACKGROUND (AUS)b. 1956 2-e
DE CHORUS (AUS)
gr. 2000
8-2-3-1
A$47,300
UNBRIDLEDS SONG (USA)
gr. 1993 (56.55)
12-5-4-0
$1,311,800
106 SW
UNBRIDLED (USA)
b. 1987 [BI] (62.31)
24-8-6-6
$4,489,475
582 f, 421 r, 279 w, 49 SW
AEI 2.70, CI 2.71, AWD 7.82
FAPPIANO (USA)
b. 1977 [IC] (74.96)
MR. PROSPECTOR (USA)b. 1970 [BC]13-c
KILLALOE (USA)b. 1970 16-a
GANA FACIL (USA)
ch. 1981
LE FABULEUX (FR)ch. 1961

13-c
CHAREDI (USA)dkb/br. 1976 1-r
TROLLEY SONG (USA)
gr. 1983
7-1-1-2
$29,373
12 f, 8 r, 4 w, 1 SW
CARO (IRE)
gr. 1967 [IC] (72.15)
FORTINO (FR)gr. 1959 4-r
CHAMBORD (GB)ch. 1955 3-o
LUCKY SPELL (USA)
b. 1971
LUCKY MEL (USA)ch. 19541-g
INCANTATION (USA)br. 19654-m
VAL DE GRACE (NZ)
br. 1987
32-7-5-1
NZ$136,524
CENTAINE (AUS)
br. 1980 (45)
20-6-?-?
A$120,350
CENTURY (AUS)
br. 1969 (67.54)
BETTER BOY (IRE)b. 1951 2-n
ROYAL SUITE (AUS)br. 1960 20
RAINBEAM (AUS)
b. 1973
VAIN (AUS)ch. 1966 A10
RAIN SHADOW (AUS)blk. 1967C7
RENASANS (NZ)
b. 1980
1 SW
ASHABIT (GB)
b. 1973 (27)
HABITAT (USA)b. 1966 4-r
ASMARA (GB)ch. 196131
MONTANA PEARL (NZ)
blk/br. 1969
RESURGENT (IRE)b. 1950 10-b
STATEVALE (NZ)blk. 19621-b
Conduit Mare Profile = 3-4-11-4-3   Speed = 7   Stamina = 7   Index = 1.00   Triads = 18-19-18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote JoH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 1:05pm
Just came across this ... so here's my 2 cents worth.  Smile

I'll stay out of the pedigree side of things (for obvious reasons) but from a 'type' perspective strongly suggest you only look at sending her to a well-balanced short coupled, compact style of horse.

Obviously long backed youngsters can and are trained very successfully but it has been my experience it takes longer to build their topline / strength and general rule of thumb taller horses simply take longer to grow (size and strength). 
If she was my mare I would not be looking much beyond 16hh ... 16.1 at an absolute pinch.
Good luck whatever you decide to do. Thumbs Up






suck it up ... Life isn't run at w.f.a. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote rem286 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 5:24pm
I think Adelaide (although unproven) would be a nice mating.  He only stands at 15.3 and is relatively short in the back.  Galileo over Danehill goes well and as a bonus so does the Fappiano bloodline.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Flight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 7:10pm
Are the days of sending maiden mares to proven stallions over?
 
 
“The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence. ”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2016 at 9:22pm
Probably best Flight but proven sires that are small ie Not a Single Doubt are well above the $25,000.  Just a few seasons too late.  The one that does have some form on board and is smaller is Magnus.  He has some lovely blood to go with also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 7:41am
Ideal world the sire would be proven, however as mentioned by Furious the list we can get at the price we want becomes limited once taking conformation (ideally smaller, short coupled) into account.

The other consideration is trying to cover costs and as our group will be keeping her at one of the mare farms in the hunter, it really narrows down which stallions have sales averages that would somewhat cover costs. This is all before looking at the pedigree and whether it looks to work on that side too..

All this while trying to come up with a long short-list as there are several owners staying in that I'm sure will have differing opinions

Looking at the leading sires from last year, the ones that come in at/around or under budget and looked to be options in my eye were:
  • Choisir - option if fee doesn't change. Query on age (18) and demand at time of sale.
  • Magnus - would be hoping sales average goes up.
  • Husson - would be hoping sales average goes up.
  • Reset - not short coupled enough? Issues with fertility this season mentioned on the boards..
  • Artie Schiller - like this boy, query on sales prices/stud fee change?
  • Street Boss - query on sales prices
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 7:49am
The trouble is Storm Siren even the biggest boys - Redoute's and Fastnet have the ones sold around the $25-$35k mark.  These out of mares with greater black type to your girl.  The foals to sell has to be perfect these days.  Not fair or real as its usually the others that win the races.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 8:06am
It's a bit of a lottery isn't it? We're hopeful for some improvement with her page - her half-sister by Myboycharlie is likely to get city form down, and her half-brother by Denman had a very green but good jump out for Robert Smerdon the other week.. There's a Smart Missile filly and Your Song colt to follow..

The Denman half is in #4... comes out of the barrier last, big grey thing like Storm...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 8:39am
I'm sure I read Reset has been retired & Street Boss has fertility issues.
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 9:38am
To fit your criteria Storm Siren, personally I would look seriously at Charge Forward , relatively short coupled , 15.3 hh , sold 23 at an average of $97000 last year , is 11k this season , you get dups of Bletchingly and My Babu both sex balanced, both love each other and Australian racing conditions  , and is 80% fertility  still, not shabby . Obviously Snippets would be great to introduce , so Magnus and Squamosa would have to be an option, or a son of Snitzel.  Magnus averages slightly over  about half of Charge Forward,. but has a strong shoulder / neck .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Biggles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 10:51am
Emirates have stopped taking maiden mares to Artie Schiller as he refuses to serve them now.
Flying High
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2016 at 6:16pm
Ok... well that narrows it down. So of the proven brigade Choisir, Magnus & Charge Forward... and maybe Husson. Then there's the stallions that have two year olds hitting the tracks this season...
Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren & Speed Hero.
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