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Australia's Whip Rules

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Carioca View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 5:02pm
Not that one djebel, when the Queen asked about a certain horses Chance and he replied that he may have to use the whip but forgot the Queen disliked it immensely, but it won without out it ( I think) any how when she came out last she asked if she could see him, she never forgets apparently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Good point Gay3 , the young lad has a great tutor if his dad is who I think it may be, there has been a number of times I've seen young jocks hitting a bit low ( flank area) and wondering why they can't " read." the resentment or horses fading while under the whip, the ones that can feel this are either naturals or mature beyond their years, but this should also be shown to the young ones at apprentice school, if anyone had the privilege to watch Geoff Lane , Bill Williamson , or Billy Cook they would understand that having your horse fully balanced and at full stride before the last resort is applied, the debate on the whip rule imo will always cause angst among the racing fraternity, but really it should be back to the apprentice school under the guidance of someone like Darren Gauci.


3bm, spurs are virtually useless these days due to stirrup length causing connection to the saddlecloth only Smile

Yes, Steven is his Dad & Gerald Egan, apprentice producer extraordinaire, his boss, up in the Mansfield mountains where they learn to ride 1st & be a jockey 2nd. That kid's only been riding 6mths & notched 4 winners at Wang last week, nearly all $20 jobs Clap
Mares more than most, resent the whip as they take offence at punishment for giving their all. He'd been told to get to the outside but was unable to do so & did his best under the circumstances for which connections were thrilled.
Darren Gauci is in fact now teaching the apprentices Big smile
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Carioca View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 5:19pm
Thanks Gay 3 , now that I know a bit more about the young man I'll watch with interest,
good to hear Darren is lending his expertise, has a wealth of knowledge, if they can absorb they will learn, spurs, your right their dummy's anyhow, saddle cloth is half a fly sheet lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 5:41pm
Thanks Gay. Why would they bother then?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 6:45pm
I don't think many do these days.
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoanFerguson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 6:55pm
The only viable option in my eyes is GET RID OF THE WHIP ALL TOGETHER. Good jockeys don't need them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

I don't think many do these days.

I gather that. Just recall seeing something about one of our better jockeys donning them for a particular ride or race day a while back. At the time  I was shocked to learn that they were still sanctioned.



If that spur on Chris Symons' boots isn't capable of inflicting pain on a horse I'll be happy to try a shorter version on his ribs some time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 7:18pm
STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:11pm
They are dummy by name and dummy by nature, if you read his whole story and IF you know anything about the racehorse or other disciplines it's a very small but integral part of the competing, like he says, not used very often and there's a saddlecloth covering the ribs as well, Storm in a teacup imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

They are dummy by name and dummy by nature, if you read his whole story and IF you know anything about the racehorse or other disciplines it's a very small but integral part of the competing, like he says, not used very often and there's a saddlecloth covering the ribs as well, Storm in a teacup imo.

In other words it will not be an issue at all to simply ban them.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:20pm
I'll let him wear a singlet when I give him that dig in the ribs then Carioca. If they're ineffective then it sounds like a security blanket for jockeys in which case perhaps a bit of aversion therapy might help fix it.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

I'll let him wear a singlet when I give him that dig in the ribs then Carioca. <span style="line-height: 1.4;">If they're ineffective then it sounds like a security blanket for jockeys in which case perhaps a bit of aversion therapy might help fix it. </span><span style="line-height: 16.8px;"> </span>LOL

All good like I say if they were that good every jock would wear them, only suits the odd one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoanFerguson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 12:35pm
Respected form analyst Dominic Beirne has outlined his formula for quantifying advantage gained by overuse of the whip, in a bid to table a solution to potential future race protests.

Beirne told RSN 927's Racing Pulse that his formula of '0.1x/a' could be the answer Racing Victoria stewards, and those Australia-wide, could be searching for.

Basically, 'x' would be the number of illegal whip uses - that is, the number exceeding five uses prior to the 100m mark. 'A' is the claiming kilograms of the apprentice, where applicable.

So if 10 illegal uses of the whip equates to a one-length advantage, if a senior jockey over-whips by 10 and wins the race by less than a length, then theoretically, the race would go to the protesting horse.

Beirne, referencing the recent unsuccessful whip-rule protest at Sportsbet-Ballarat where Lachlan King overused the whip in a narrow win for Tavonian, said it was illogical that stewards can come up with a sanction for whip breaches that don't affect the race result.

King was fined $750 for over-use, and a further $250 for consecutive-stride use prior to the 100m mark.

"Those things [fines for consecutive stride, over-use] are able to be quantified, but not the margin. Or to be fair to the steward, he's quantified the margin as less than 0.1 of a length. And you'll never uphold one on the base of that," Beirne said, in reference to the June 4 protest.

Brooke Sweeney protested after her mount Penny To Sell was beaten by 0.1 of a length by the King-ridden Tavonian.

Beirne added he felt RV's chairman of stewards, Terry Bailey, should be more open to protests regarding whip use, and not bypass the issue.

"I was surprised Terry would say that [he would never uphold a whip protest]," Beirne said.

"I put an example on Twitter whereby if a jockey hit a horse every second stride from the top of the straight to the 100m mark, and exceeded the number of legal hits by 10 - so he kept hitting the horse every second stride - and the horse won by a nose, and the second horse protested ... if the stewards aren't prepared to act upon such a circumstance as that, the rule is not being policed.

"This rule can be policed; it's just going to take a brave steward to be the first one to do it."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 1:02pm
Has Beirne become a victim of his own hubris? His somewhat farcical "formula" aside (good luck finding examples of 10 whip strikes producing a length improvement), you'd think he'd know that Qld stewards have already broken the ice in a dead heat. The reasoning was interesting - one jockey broke the rules, the other conformed, ergo protest upheld. No attempt to quantify the result of extra whip strikes afaik, they just assumed they must have had some positive effect. I looked at the replay and it's possible they had no effect (RSPCA tests reckon that's often the case iirc), or even a detrimental effect - which is where Beirne's 1 minute noodling strikes its first hurdle. IF that indeed was Qld stewards logic then I wonder how would they deal with a deadheat in which both jockeys broke the rule but one had 1 more "illegal" whip strike. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 1:39pm
I do not think he is a victim of anything, I think he has just added something to the debate worth discussing.

Something other than simply punishing the jockey has to be done.

At the moment punters who have backed a horse whose jockey as stuck to the rules are being punished.










































Is that the correct "whose" ?


















STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 1:40pm
I know it is the incorrect "as"  Ouch


has
STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I do not think he is a victim of anything, I think he has just added something to the debate worth discussing.

Something other than simply punishing the jockey has to be done.

At the moment punters who have backed a horse whose jockey as stuck to the rules are being punished.

I think he's trying to get his "formula" accepted as an option djebel. It's a pup.

I don't agree with the certainty of your last line. That MAY be the case, arguably has been, but in general we can't say for sure. 

Pretty sure I mentioned the case of Yankee Rose in the Slipper. From his after the event comment the jockey's mindset was the issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RED HUNTER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 3:56pm
Dominic's formula will be interesting  if adopted.....and then applicable to the MELBOURNE CUP.*

the first fifteen home will be screening for an improved position and imagine a few protests being upheld on his formula.

the good money goes down to 8th or 10th.

CHAOS.

* or any big race with extended prizemoney
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 4:00pm
Hands up anyone who thinks 10 early whip strikes=1 length advantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Hands up anyone who thinks 10 early whip strikes=1 length advantage.

Hughie Bowman and Tommy Berry make very good points on early edition of Hoof On The Till on ABC, They want more early strikes of whip and basically less in the last 100m or furlong.

Basically they want the whip for getting the horse up to full momentum. Once that is achieved they do not need the whip quite as feverishly. 

That does not mean Bowman should be stopping riding as he approaches the finish line as he has been guilty of on a few occasions.

 
STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 1:35pm
Can't disagree with that. Think it has been mentioned before in regard to staying races in particular. One of the problems with the rule is that it doesn't (can't) differentiate between horses  - some need to be reminded to get going a lot earlier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Hands up anyone who thinks 10 early whip strikes=1 length advantage.

Hughie Bowman and Tommy Berry make very good points on early edition of Hoof On The Till on ABC, They want more early strikes of whip and basically less in the last 100m or furlong.

Basically they want the whip for getting the horse up to full momentum. Once that is achieved they do not need the whip quite as feverishly. 

That does not mean Bowman should be stopping riding as he approaches the finish line as he has been guilty of on a few occasions.

 
I made the same complaint as it pertains to the whip rule, although I did not advocate for less strikes over the last furlong.

It is absolutely getting a ton of horses beat, this is why I always advocate for jockeys to show more intent and early aggression.

It's also taught jockeys to show no initiative and wait for the last 100m to ask for a maximum effort which is way too late.

Racing like this will produced weak squibs with short sprints. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luva Punt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:


Something other than simply punishing the jockey has to be done.

At the moment punters who have backed a horse whose jockey as stuck to the rules are being punished.


You have to penalise the jockey for breaching the rules with a penalty that will make them take a little notice of the rule and comply.

Up it to $5,000 for every whip strike in breach of the rules, and see how many times the rule gets broken.

... Something has to be done, because currently it is just an absolute joke DeadDead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RED HUNTER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 9:40am
(yesterday...mockery...from THE HOUSE OF FOOLS)

RACE 4: Pro Rata ATC Membership On Sale sprint 1200m Upscale - prior to the declaration of weight, the Stewards identified from the inquiry room that rider H Bowman had struck his mount on 9 occasions prior to the 100m. When Stewards could not be satisfied that Upscale had gained an advantage that resulted in it finishing in 3rd placing in the race, in accordance with AR168(2) they therefore declined to exercise their powers under AR137A(9) and did not proceed with a formal objection. At a subsequent inquiry H Bowman pleaded guilty to a charges under AR137A(5)(a)i) and ((ii) in that he used the whip on 9 occasions prior to the 100m (4 more than permitted), inclusive of 7 successive strikes. H Bowman was fined $500 under AR137A(5)(a)(i) and was reprimanded under AR137A(5)(a)(ii) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RED HUNTER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 9:46am
Bowman and UPSCALE...in an extremely blanket finish.....nearly picked up the win of 54k, instead received 9k for third placing...fined 500

Accepting he does not need it but if it was my horse,I'd be paying HUGHIE the 500 and saying "thanks mate"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 10:07am
Under the Beirne formula would 3rd have been taken off him ?


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 11:52am
After reading the comments on this thread one thing is for certain. EVERYBODY believes that hitting a horse with a padded whip makes it go faster. From a purely horsemanship perspective I'm not 100% sure this is the truth. I also find it amazing that anyone would think you can apply a mathematical formula to any horse. Theyre all individuals and of course thinking animals not machines. What works for one won't work for another.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I also find it amazing that anyone would think you can apply a mathematical formula to any horse. Theyre all individuals and of course thinking animals not machines. What works for one won't work for another.



The Math has nothing to do with whether Jockey is a harder hitter than jockey B it is simply a guide line that tells everybody exactly what will happen if you break the rules.

Whether it is a good or bad rule is a totally different argument.

STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SkyDancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 12:57pm
The $500 fine system is a joke

For every strike over, they should have 1 race meeting of NO PAY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 1:51pm
Well I for one do not believe it makes every horse go faster such is the nature of the thinking animal ( man or beast) , I have seen horses in my time in ding dong duels giving their best under hands and heels with the jockey knowing it will curl up if he pulls the whip
others that I've seen that have been great but only win by small margins you could ask yourself " could they have won without the whip", it really is a paradox, is less more? to my way of thinking the only one to give us this answer is the man on top to give us a true and intelligent appraisal ( or women lol) , I have seen humans offered a big incentive to get a certain job done and the work rate went through the roof, for some there is nothing like an inducement, but in all honesty the answers a pineapple.imo
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