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Australasia's 100 greatest female racehorses

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Tontonan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2018 at 11:05pm
By the time we start pruning this list of some of its fat Begonia Belle might be required yet.  

She is just the sort of  mare who would be acclaimed as a champion if she had the luxury of all those mares races that we have today.  Instead she did it the hard way in open company and her record is very impressive to the Autumn of her 3YO season before she makes an underwhelming trip to Queensland.   

Back in Melbourne in the Spring as a 4YO she is honest enough but in the Autumn, just as it seems her form has moderated, she unleashes with narrow defeat on a heavy track in the Oakleigh Plate then wins the Newmarket in record time and romps home over a mile in the Alister Clark Stakes to close out her career.  

I think she is a legitimate candidate.  Thumbs Up

Another that has been overlooked is Ortensia.  Overshadowed by the great Black Caviar (they only actually met once, in the VRC Sprint Classic and BC beat her third by more than 6 lengths) Ortensia has an exceptionally good international record winning Group 1 races in Australia, Dubai and England. 

Principal wins

2011 WATC Winterbottom Stakes AUS-G1 1200m 
2012 Al Quoz Sprint UAE-G1 1000m 
2012 Nunthorpe Stakes GB-G1 1000m 
2012 King George Stakes GB-G2 1000m
2009 QTC Cup AUS-G2 1300m 
2009 WATC Winterbottom Stakes AUS-G2 1200m 
2008 MRC Thousand Guineas Prelude AUS-G3 1400m 
2010 AJC Galaxy AUS-G1 1100m (But then disqualified)


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Tontonan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 2:43pm
I would like to apply a criteria excluding fillies and mares from the list that have not raced in Australia.  I am more than happy to generate a separate list for New Zealand fillies and mares but it will make life a hell of a lot easier if we leave those off who never made the trip across the Tasman.

I would also take off those fillies and mares that raced in Australia but did not win a stakes races.

That would remove the following 11 from the list -

Hilda (NZ) Cynisca (NZ) Lady Zetland (NZ) Warstep (NZ) Silver Scorn (NZ) Yahabeebe (NZ) Soneri (NZ) Sea Spray (NZ) Show Gate (NZ) Battle Eve (NZ)  Snap (NZ) 

There are some champions there but I don't feel confident of assessing the fillies and mares of New Zealand or assessing the quality of their NZ records.  

If the criteria was extended to exclude fillies and mares who have not won a Group 1 (or equivalent) race in Australia then Seachange (NZ) La Mer (NZ) wouldn't make the cut either.  

Cruciform would stay because although it is debatable whether the AJC Spring Stakes was a Group 1 equivalent race she did beat Wakeful in winning it.  Tycoon Lil (NZ) hangs by a thread owing to her win in the Canterbury Guineas. 

I would replace them with these :

Begonia Belle,  Canny Lass, Champagne (NZ), Jezabeel (NZ), Ortensia and Delicacy

And the list would look like this ....

1850....Zoe*
1865....Barbelle*
1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1876....Petrea*
1891....Quiver*
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
1900....Marvel Loch*

 
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1911....Carlita
1911....Tarquette*
1911....Wilari
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1920....Frances Tressady*
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
1929....Waltzing Lily*
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1941....Tea Rose
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl
1957....Lady Sybil (NZ)*
1958....Indian Summer*
1960....Ripa*
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1961....Citius*
1963....Storm Queen*
1964....Lowland (NZ)
1964....Begonia Belle*
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1969....Toltrice
1971....Cap D'Antibes
 
 
1971....Leica Show*
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1975....La Mer (NZ)*
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 
1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc (NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1982....Canny Lass*
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1984....Bravery*
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza (NZ)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1991....Circles Of Gold
1992....Jezabeel*
1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1994....Champagne (NZ)*
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2002....Seachange (NZ)
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2005....Ortensia*
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2007....Red Tracer*
2007....Shamrocker (NZ)*
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Appearance*
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)
2008....Mosheen*
2011....Winx
2011....Delicacy*
2012....English
2012....Jameka

 

119 entries

If anyone objects lodge a protest by all means.  

Otherwise I think we just about have the possibilities covered and can move on to deciding which 19 can be cut from the list to bring it back to 100.  



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Carioca View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 3:12pm
I'm glad you have included Lady Sybil Tontonan, another fav. fwiw.
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Tontonan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 4:00pm
It may be that Lady Sybil was simply a superior wet tracker, but there is a bit more to her than that.  

She famous for one campaign, in the Spring of 1960 when she won 7 of 8 starts...

WON VATC Elsternwick Stakes (Slow) x 2½ lengths
WON MRC Berwick Handicap (Slow) x 6 lengths
WON MVRC Moonee Valley Stakes (Slow) neck to Samson
WON VRC Edward Manifold Stakes (Heavy) x 10 lengths
WON VATC Caulfield Guineas (Heavy) x 3 lengths to Sky High
3rd VATC Thousand Guineas (Good)  Head x 2 lengths  Wenona Girl 1st; Impulsive 3rd (dam of Reckless)
WON VRC Oaks Stakes (Heavy) x 2 lengths
WON VATC Sandown Guineas (Slow) x neck

At that point she had 18 starts for 9 wins 3 seconds and 1 third and the scalps of a couple of Hall of Famers to her credit.  But then she totally lost form and did not win again in a further 13 starts and mid way through her 4YO season she was bought by Nelson Bunker hunt and exported to the USA.  

She proved an excellent broodmare producing Amerigo Lady who was a multiple Graded stakes winner in the USA including the Gr.1 Firenze Hcp (defeating Shuvee no less) and the Hollywood Oaks. 

She also produced Brigand who returned to Australia as a sire and produced Cole Diesel and River Rough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Summer Regent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 9:43pm
Good idea with the criteria for the elimination of those New Zealanders, Tontonan. It'll be harder to get consensus on the final 100 though.

For the sake of completeness, one New Zealander which could be considered is the Summertime mare, Stellar Belle (1963), which raced here as Star Belle. 

She was the best NZ 3yo of her season with the Derbies/St Leger plus the Oaks, although she was only 3rd behind Farmer's Daughter in the 1966 VRC Oaks and unplaced when Cendrillon upset 3/1 on Storm Queen in the 1000 Guineas. 

She won 18 races including the following (4 current G1s)

1966 Wakeful Stakes

1966 ARC Great Northern Derby

1966 CJC NZ Oaks

1966 ARC Great Northern Guineas

1966 WRC Desert Gold Stakes

1966 ARC Ladies Mile

1967 Wellington Derby

1967 Craiglee Stakes

1967 Liston Stakes

1967 Turnbull Stakes


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarriSymbol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 hours 32 minutes ago at 1:10pm
In the Caulfield Cup of 1996 the runs of Arctic Scent (1992) and Saleous (1992) were better than that of Circles Of Gold (1991).
Arctic Scent won the race and Saleous, an on pacer, missed the start badly and made up many many lengths to finish sixth.
At their next start in the Mackinnon, Saleous beat home both Circles Of Gold and Arctic Scent.

A case could be made that both Saleous and Arctic Scent have equal or even superior records to Circles Of Gold.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 13 minutes ago at 12:29am
I agree.  Circles of Gold is one of the first I would take off.  She only won 1 Group 1 race and that was age and sex restricted.  I think she was originally included (along with a few others) because djebel was in two minds regarding whether the mares breeding record was relevant.  

I'd make the same argument regarding Bravery and Toltrice and Gay Poss : Their records as broodmares has been influential in their selection.

The only criteria we had was the thread title 

Australasia's 100 greatest female racehorses


If it had of been 'greatest Thoroughbred fillies and mares' then their breeding record would matter, but as it is 'greatest female racehorses' the breeding record doesn't matter at all.

As 100 is the magic number we need to weed 17 from the current list...

1850....Zoe*
1865....Barbelle*
1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1876....Petrea*
1891....Quiver*
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
1900....Marvel Loch*

 
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1911....Carlita
1911....Tarquette*
1911....Wilari
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1920....Frances Tressady*
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
1929....Waltzing Lily*
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1941....Tea Rose
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl
1957....Lady Sybil (NZ)*
1958....Indian Summer*
1960....Ripa*
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1961....Citius*
1963....Storm Queen*
1964....Lowland (NZ)
1964....Begonia Belle*
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1969....Toltrice
 
 
 
1971....Cap D'Antibes
1971....Leica Show*
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 

59

1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc (NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1982....Canny Lass*
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1984....Bravery*
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza (NZ)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1991....Circles Of Gold
1992....Jezabeel*

1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1994....Champagne (NZ)*
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2005....Ortensia*
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2007....Red Tracer*
2007....Shamrocker (NZ)*
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Appearance*
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)
2008....Mosheen*
2011....Winx
2011....Delicacy*
2012....English
2012....Jameka

 
58

Hall of Famers in Bold
*
= addition to original list

Removed from original list :

Hilda (NZ) Cynisca (NZ) Lady Zetland (NZ) Warstep (NZ) Silver Scorn (NZ) Yahabeebe (NZ) Soneri (NZ) Sea Spray (NZ) Show Gate (NZ) Battle Eve (NZ)  Snap (NZ) 
Reason : NZ mares who either never started in Australia or never won a stakes race in Australia

La Mer (NZ) and Seachange (NZ) and Stellar Belle (NZ)
Reason : Never won a Group 1 race (or equivalent) in Australia
______________________________________________________________________

Following Warri Symbol's lead, if you have any suggestions as to which 17 horses should be cut from the list please post them...



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