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Australasia's 100 greatest female racehorses

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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2018 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Tontonan Tontonan wrote:

The most recent version of the table with Abit Leica removed and Auraria and True Course added.  The top row conveniently ends in 1979 with the introduction of Group racing.  The bottom line is a bit fat IMO.  There are some champion mares there but others were just top class.  But it is probably better to have too many and them edit than not have enough... which reminds me... why 100 ?

 
1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1870.....Hilda (NZ)
1886.....Cynisca (NZ)
1887.....Lady Zetland (NZ)
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
 
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1910....Warstep (NZ)
1911....Carlita
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
 
1929....Silver Scorn (NZ)
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1942....Soneri (NZ)
1946....Sweet Spray (NZ)
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1953....Yahabeebe (NZ)
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Show Gate (NZ)
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1969....Toltrice
1971....Cap D'Antibes
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 
1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc
(NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1990....Snap (NZ)
 
1991....Circles Of Gold
1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2002....Seachange (NZ)
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Silent Achiever
2011....Winx
2012....English
2012....Jameka

Tontonan if you do not mind as people nominate mares from the past if you could add them in the year of their birth it would be greatly appreciated ?

Also I will leave it up to you to delete mares as you see fit.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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Tontonan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2018 at 3:27pm
I'll keep an eye on it but it is very easy to simply copy the table from any post, paste it into a full message box, and edit it directly. 

As for the 'why 100 ?' ...I have found when making these sorts of lists to avoid working to a number.  A few years ago (quite a few now) there were quite a few Top 100 horses of the 20th century lists getting about and I collected and compared them.  The degree of consensus diminished the longer the list was.  I mean between three different lists there was consensus on 7 or 8 of the top 10, 14 or 15 of the Top 20 and about 19 or 20 of the Top 30 but the longer the lists the less consensus there was over the 'also rans'. 

I avoid working to a number.  If there are 13 race mares that are clearly the best of their kind why extend the list to 20 and pad it out with 7 inferiors for the sake of a round number ?  I have wasted a lot of time doing that sort of thing and its not worth it.  

My advice would be to hone the list down to the best of the best then be a hard arse about the rest.  You might end up with 37 or 23 or some other ugly prime number but who cares.  It is better than mulling over which of these 29 mares are going to fit into the last 10 spots of a round number... if you get my drift.  

It is a bit like cataloging stars - go for the brightest first and build the list from there. 

...that's not a bad analogy actually...

Magnitude 10 : Wakeful, Sunline, Makybe Diva, Black Caviar, Winx
Magnitude 9 : Briseis, Let's Elope, Surround, Emancipation, Ethereal
Magnitude 8 : La Carabine, Desert Gold, Cuddle, Tranquil Star, Flight, Wenona Girl, Dual Choice, Leilani, Maybe Mahal, Empire Rose, Horlicks, More Joyous
Magnitude 7 :  Gladsome, Carlita, Valicare, Wiggle, Light Fingers, Rose of Kingston, Tristarc, Mannerism, Dane Ripper, Private Steer, Alinghi, Miss Andretti 
Magnitude 6 : Florence, Auraria, Lady Wallace, Rivette, Rainbird, Evening Peal, Analie, Cap D'Antibes, Blue Denim, Bounding Away, Research, Hot Danish, Miss Finland, Atlantic Jewel, Jameka

etc, etc,.  

But don't take this list to heart.  I threw it together in 5 minutes and not even I agree with all of it.  
As a point of curiosity 50% of the mares on this list were drawn from before 1980 and 50% after 1980 (i.e. the same proportion as your list).   I don't think that spread has as much to do with our prejudice for horses we have seen as it has to do with the prominence of mares both in the pattern and on the track since 1980.

A Grand Dam list is another excellent idea and building the list around family numbers would be a very interesting way of doing it.  But that is for another thread...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 6:44pm
Very interesting thread. Perhaps a few others that warrant consideration include Tea Rose, Lowland & the NZ mares La Mer & Battle Eve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2018 at 6:48pm
...and Leica Show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2018 at 3:44pm
Frances Tressady who would not make the cut, She won both the Victorian Oaks and Derby in 1923 is the 9th dam of Lady Soma who is undefeated after 2 starts in the South Australian outback. 




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 6:43pm
Not sure if I have mentioned her elsewhere but Bravery, whilst not one of our great race mares was a top class filly and is proving a wonderful matriarch. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MJB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 7:21pm
I haven't been in the game long enough to give much of an opinion/contribution but l would definitely put a mare like Red Tracer ahead of English.

Red Tracer was a multiple Group 1 winner. 15 wins from 38 starts. She was top draw over a long period of time.

Great list though!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stayer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by MJB MJB wrote:

I haven't been in the game long enough to give much of an opinion/contribution but l would definitely put a mare like Red Tracer ahead of English.

Red Tracer was a multiple Group 1 winner. 15 wins from 38 starts. She was top draw over a long period of time.

Great list though!

And if you like Red Tracer you'd have to like Appearance too. Great rivalry between those 2, but Appearance usually came out on top.
"She's going through a growth phase." - GW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 8:40pm
List updated

1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1870.....Hilda (NZ)
1886.....Cynisca (NZ)
1887.....Lady Zetland (NZ)
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
 
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1910....Warstep (NZ)
1911....Carlita
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1920....Frances Tressady*
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
 
1929....Silver Scorn (NZ)
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1941....Tea Rose
1942....Soneri (NZ)
1946....Sweet Spray (NZ)
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1953....Yahabeebe (NZ)
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1964....Lowland (NZ)
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Show Gate (NZ)
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1970....Battle Eve (NZ)*
1969....Toltrice
1971....Cap D'Antibes
1971....Leica Show*
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1975....La Mer (NZ)*
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 
1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc 
(NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1984....Bravery*
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza (NZ)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1990....Snap (NZ)
 
1991....Circles Of Gold
1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2002....Seachange (NZ)
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2007....Red Tracer*
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Appearance*
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)
2011....Winx
2012....English
2012....Jameka

* indicates additions to the original list
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 8:59pm
Reagardless what has since happened to the trainer, Mosheen simply has to be there. Beat the colts in both the Australian and Randwick Guineas. And won an Oaks by 9L.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 9:18pm
I will top up the list with Mosheen (2008) at a later date.  

If she goes in though, so must Shamrocker (NZ) (2007). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MJB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by stayer stayer wrote:

Originally posted by MJB MJB wrote:

I haven't been in the game long enough to give much of an opinion/contribution but l would definitely put a mare like Red Tracer ahead of English.

Red Tracer was a multiple Group 1 winner. 15 wins from 38 starts. She was top draw over a long period of time.

Great list though!

And if you like Red Tracer you'd have to like Appearance too. Great rivalry between those 2, but Appearance usually came out on top.


How did l forget Appearance! Good call.

Guy Walter was a master trainer, but he was especially good at training mares. He was taken from us too soon.

Streama was another one of his good ones but she probably sits just outside the top 100.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 4:48pm
Another update

1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1870.....Hilda (NZ)
1886.....Cynisca (NZ)
1887.....Lady Zetland (NZ)
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
 
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1910....Warstep (NZ)
1911....Carlita
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1920....Frances Tressady*
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
1929....Waltzing Lily*
1929....Silver Scorn (NZ)
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1941....Tea Rose
1942....Soneri (NZ)
1946....Sweet Spray (NZ)
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1953....Yahabeebe (NZ)
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl

1957....Lady Sybil (NZ)*
1958....Indian Summer*
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1963....Storm Queen*
1964....Lowland (NZ)
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Show Gate (NZ)
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1970....Battle Eve (NZ)*
1969....Toltrice

1971....Cap D'Antibes
1971....Leica Show*
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1975....La Mer (NZ)*
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 
1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc 
(NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1984....Bravery*
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza (NZ)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1990....Snap (NZ)
1991....Circles Of Gold
1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2002....Seachange (NZ)
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2007....Red Tracer*
2007....Shamrocker (NZ)*
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Appearance*
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)
2008....Mosheen*
2011....Winx
2012....English
2012....Jameka

* indicates additions to the original list

Some thoughts...

We are up to 115 and already the boundary between a champion, top class and very good filly/mare is getting very blurred.  

Personally I do not get carried away about fillies and mares who only excel against fillies and mares.  Appearance was a top class race mare, no doubt, but her three Group 1's were against her own sex.  There are several others on the list who are in a similar boat.  

Obviously it is not the mares fault that her connections set her to beat her own kind rather than take on the boys. It is the most sensible way to race such a mare these days.  But back in the day when owners did not have the luxury of a glut of high staked, high graded races restricted to females they had no option than to run against the males.  There basically wasn't a distaff stakes race in Australia prior to the Winfield Classic (Coolmore Stakes) in 1980.  None at all. 

That maybe the reason why the list is so skewed to 'modern times'.

Another issue is the modern tendency to turn our noses up at historical racing, and apply a much tougher standard to including the 'ancients' on our list.  Take Barbelle for example, own sister to The Barb, winner of the Doncaster Handicap and the Sydney Cup and three editions of the VRC Flying Stakes.  Or Zoe, who won two Australian Champion Sweepstakes and ran second in controversial circumstances in a third.  They don't even make the list !

'Oh but racing was weak in those days' they say.  Yeah, 3 miles with 10 stone and the jockey sitting in the middle of her back, shod in iron on tracks that were little better than cow paddocks, .  Real weak.  But then people have this daft idea that some how, if only in their imagination, these historical horses can be compared to the moderns on the race tracks of their minds and there could be divined a winner and a loser ... in their dreams.  

The first lesson when considering horses across the ages is that everything is relative to the times in which the horses raced.  Same goes for humans.  Usain Bolt is 7 metres faster over 100m than Jesse Owens by the clock - do you really believe Jesse was a 7m inferior athlete to Usain or does Usain get a 7m push by virtue of the 80 years between them ?  Same goes for horses.  The magnitude of their achievements needs to be measured against the metric of their own time.

But what am I saying.  This list doesn't need anymore nominations let alone from the 19th century.  What it needs is trimming.... and for the mares who only raced in New Zealand to be taken off it. Tongue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 5:28pm
I would not say the best horses of yesteryear were weak but it is only fair to assumptionise that depth would have been less.

I would prefer we expand - define and than refine 😊

I am happy for you or anybody to add as many old time mares worthy of debate.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 6:45pm
What is the point of a distaff, a race restricted to mares, that excludes entires and geldings, if it isn't to restrict the depth of the competition ?

And what is the point of paying to 10th if it isn't to subsidize those horses that are not competitive ?

Or of a handicap ratings system that restricts races to horses with a similar lack of ability so that there is a race for everybody to win  ?  

The old girls on this list raced when stakes were lean and they only paid to second.  There were no socialist ratings restricted races.  No distaffs either.  They either had aptitude to race against the boys or they were given something else to do (as there were many uses for a horse in those days). 

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The one I’m struggling with is Unworldly. Surely there on “ potential”. Record is nowhere near what it should to be on this list.
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Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

The one I’m struggling with is Unworldly. Surely there on “ potential”. Record is nowhere near what it should to be on this list.

We could probably say the same of Angst, and even fillies like Indian Summer and Nizam's Ring.  Their form was almost entirely in age and sex restricted company and only for a campaign or two.  Undoubtedly talented but some of 'greatest' females to race in Australia ????

 Potentially I suppose...

Here are a few from the old days...

PETREA : 1876 (King of the Ring - Mischief)   a full sister to First King, considered by some to be the best horse before Carbine.  Her ½ sister Maid Of All Work (by King Alfred) was also extra smart 
winning the Maribyrnong Plate, Ascot Vale Stakes, VRC Sires Produce and the VRC Oaks.  
17 starts for 7 wins.

Principal wins

At 2 years
1879 VRC Sires' Produce Stakes 7f
1879 VRC Ascot Vale Stakes 6f
At 3 years
1879 VRC The Oaks Stakes 12f
1880 AJC St Leger Stakes 14f
1880 AJC Cumberland Stakes 16f
1880 AJC Sydney Cup 16f

also second in the 1880 Australian Cup and 1880 AJC PLate (beaten a length in record time by Caspian).

Owned by WJ Clarke until after the Australian Cup when he sold the filly to William Long after taking offence when accused in the press of the filly not running 'the full rupee' at the Flemington meeting.  Long also owned Grand Flaneur.

ZOE :  1850 (Sir Hercules - Flora McIvor).  Bred in NSW but sold, along with her sire, dam and others to the father of the NZ turf Henry Redwood who raced her until she was 7YO before coming to Sydney to win the Queens Plate.  Redwood then sold her to Honest John Tait.  As a 9YO under 10.1 she finished second to the '3YO' Flying Buck with 6.8 in the first Australian Champion Sweepstakes.  The result was controversial because the convention of 1 August as the birthday of thoroughbreds had yet to be established and it was suspected that the Buck was bred to northern time and had a 6 month advantage under theweights.  Zoe was conceding him22kg.

Zoe went on to win the 2nd Australian Champion Sweepstakes at Randwick (the Buck finished nowhere) and then traveled to Ipswich to win the 3rd Australian Champion Sweepstakes as a 10 year old.  

BARBELLE 1865  (Sir Hercules - Fair Ellen)  Sister to The Barb
Another of John Tait's Barbelle could be hard to catch but in a time when class mares were rare she was the exception.

Principal Wins

1868 AJC Mares Produce Stakes
1870  AJC Doncaster Hcp
1870  AJC Sydney Cup
1870  VRC Flying Stakes (7f)
1871  VRC Flying Stakes (7f)
1872 VRC Flying Stakes (7f)

Note :  The Flying Stakes was renamed the Linlithgow in 1908.  It was the best short course WFA race in Melbourne.

WILARI  1911 (Wallace - Murna)
Herbert Power's filly.  Beat Lady Wallace's son Cisco and Jacamar (full brother to Poseidon) for the Derby

Principal wins
 
1911  VRC Sires Produce
1911 VRC Victoria Derby
1911 VRC Oaks 
1911 VRC St Leger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 32 minutes ago at 10:39am
Tontonan the Hilda in the above list I presume is the daughter of Musket and bred in 1885 not 1870.  That one was an Australian filly by Yattendon who didn't win anything of note.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 29 minutes ago at 10:42am
Also I thinks she is well behind another New Zealand filly not on the list - Passive dam of Sobig.
Passive won the GN Derby, NZ Derby, Oaks, Wellington Guineas, Desert Gold S, Gloaming S, NZ St Leger and Sires' Produce S.  And then produced an outstanding son.  One impressive mare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 14 minutes ago at 10:57am
Also did anyone say Storm Queen with the Golden Slipper, Champagne S, VRC Sires' Produce, George Adams Handicap, Lightning S, Caulfield Guineas, Moonee Valley S, Merson Cooper, SAJC Bloodhorse Breedrs, Edward Manifold S etc.  Only further back and 4th three times - her first start over 4f her first up as a 3yo and her last run in the Doncaster H.  Perhaps Cummings doing his usual bringing them up slowly!  The last run anything can happen in the Doncaster H with the big fields.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 55 minutes ago at 12:16pm
Interesting stat would be what percentage of the 100 very best mares produced a horse equal or better than herself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 11 minutes ago at 1:00pm
An awful lot didn't even have foals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 45 minutes ago at 1:26pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Also did anyone say Storm Queen with the Golden Slipper, Champagne S, VRC Sires' Produce, George Adams Handicap, Lightning S, Caulfield Guineas, Moonee Valley S, Merson Cooper, SAJC Bloodhorse Breedrs, Edward Manifold S etc.  Only further back and 4th three times - her first start over 4f her first up as a 3yo and her last run in the Doncaster H.  Perhaps Cummings doing his usual bringing them up slowly!  The last run anything can happen in the Doncaster H with the big fields.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">

She's there furious, can't forget her, top class.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 20 minutes ago at 1:51pm
Well spotted Furious. 

I think djebel took the list from Peter Pring's book Analysis of Champion Racehorses (although Pring gives the correct year of birth for Musket's Hilda).  Personally I think those NZ mares who did not race in Australia should be taken off the list, especially if we are to make the cut at 100.

I added Storm Queen in my last update yesterday.  Again, I think the oversight was because she didn't meet Pring's criteria for Analysis of Champion Racehorses.  That book was published in 1977 so everything after 1977 has been added by djebel.

As for Bart, he was a student of thoroughbred families and he had his favourites.  

I have a list of 476 of Australia's greatest racehorses that are sorted by family number and 7 of the 476 come from family 5-d.  And of those 7 no less than 5 were trained by Bart Cummings - Storm Queen, Taj Rossi, Think Big, Tontonan and Saintly.    The other two not trained by Bart were Bobadil and Prince Foote who were a bit before his time. 


1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1885.....Hilda (NZ)
1886.....Cynisca (NZ)
1887.....Lady Zetland (NZ)
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
 
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1910....Warstep (NZ)
1911....Carlita
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1920....Frances Tressady*
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
1929....Waltzing Lily*
1929....Silver Scorn (NZ)
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1941....Tea Rose
1942....Soneri (NZ)
1946....Sweet Spray (NZ)
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1953....Yahabeebe (NZ)
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl

1957....Lady Sybil (NZ)*
1958....Indian Summer*
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1963....Storm Queen*
1964....Lowland (NZ)
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Show Gate (NZ)
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1970....Battle Eve (NZ)*
1969....Toltrice

1971....Cap D'Antibes
1971....Leica Show*
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1975....La Mer (NZ)*
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 
1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc 
(NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1984....Bravery*
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza (NZ)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1990....Snap (NZ)
1991....Circles Of Gold
1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2002....Seachange (NZ)
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2007....Red Tracer*
2007....Shamrocker (NZ)*
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Appearance*
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)
2008....Mosheen*
2011....Winx
2012....English
2012....Jameka

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Summer Regent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5 hours 56 minutes ago at 4:15pm

Here's a few other mares who did well against the males

Quiver (1891)

1895 Randwick Plate

1895 AJC Spring Stakes

1896 Champion Stakes (=1st)

 

Marvel Loch (1900)

1903 AJC Metropolitan

1904 Railway Stakes (George Ryder Stakes)

1905 VATC Eclipse Stakes (Herbert Power)

1905 Rawson Stakes (Ranvet)

1905 Caulfield Cup

1906 Rawson Stakes

 

Traquette (1911)

1913 Maribyrnong Plate

1915 Memsie Stakes

1915 Caulfield Stakes

1915 Melbourne Stakes (L.K.S. Mackinnon Stakes)

1915 Linlithgow Stakes

1915 C.M. Lloyd Stakes

 

Ripa (1960)

1963 Craven A Stakes (VRC Sprint Classic)

1963 Sandown Guineas

1964 Invitation Stakes (Rupert Clark)

1965 Newmarket

1965 C.M. Lloyd Stakes

1965 Toorak Handicap

 

Citius (1962) (she was perhaps Star Kingdom’s best daughter)

1965 VRC Sires’ Produce

1966 Lightning Stakes

1966 Oakleigh Plate

1966 Doncaster

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4 hours 48 minutes ago at 5:23pm
I'd pay all those, although Quiver could be a bit iffy.  

I have done these sort of exercises many times before and these lists get out of hand.  The more names we add the more names suggest themselves.  I sat down to put together a site containing the 100 greatest racehorses ... and I end up with 347 ... and I have got past 1980 !  By the time I am done I will have 500 and still be stressing about those that have been left out. 

Hard criteria is probably the answer ... or brutal editing.   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4 hours 41 minutes ago at 5:30pm
Just so we are reminded of the benchmarks I have made the Hall of fame mares bold

 
1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1885.....Hilda (NZ)
1886.....Cynisca (NZ)
1887.....Lady Zetland (NZ)
1891....Quiver
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
1900....Marvel Loch 

1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1910....Warstep (NZ)
1911....Carlita
1911....Tarquette
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1920....Frances Tressady*
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
1929....Waltzing Lily*
1929....Silver Scorn (NZ)
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1941....Tea Rose
1942....Soneri (NZ)
1946....Sweet Spray (NZ)
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1953....Yahabeebe (NZ)
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl
1957....Lady Sybil (NZ)*
1958....Indian Summer*
1960....Ripa
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1961....Citius
1963....Storm Queen*
1964....Lowland (NZ)
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Show Gate (NZ)
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1970....Battle Eve (NZ)*
1969....Toltrice

1971....Cap D'Antibes
1971....Leica Show*
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1975....La Mer (NZ)*
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 
1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc 
(NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1984....Bravery*
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza (NZ)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1990....Snap (NZ)
1991....Circles Of Gold
1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2002....Seachange (NZ)
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2007....Red Tracer*
2007....Shamrocker (NZ)*
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Appearance*
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)
2008....Mosheen*
2011....Winx
2012....English
2012....Jameka

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4 hours 37 minutes ago at 5:34pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Also did anyone say Storm Queen with the Golden Slipper, Champagne S, VRC Sires' Produce, George Adams Handicap, Lightning S, Caulfield Guineas, Moonee Valley S, Merson Cooper, SAJC Bloodhorse Breedrs, Edward Manifold S etc.  Only further back and 4th three times - her first start over 4f her first up as a 3yo and her last run in the Doncaster H.  Perhaps Cummings doing his usual bringing them up slowly!  The last run anything can happen in the Doncaster H with the big fields.

Thanks Furious.  

And yes, Tontonan did suggest Storm Queen.  Thumbs Up  The majority of the races listed below are now Group 1's following the fundamental change in the grading of stakes races quite some years ago now.



YearRaceGradeWinnerTrainerWinner Fam.Dist.2nd3rdTimeComment
1967LIGHTNING STAKES STORM QUEEN5-d5 FREDCAPMARMION30:59.80 
1967MVRC WILLIAM REID STAKES MARMION3C16 FSTORM QUEENTOBIN BRONZE1:12.40 
1966VATC MERSON COOPER STAKES STORM QUEEN5-d6 FPRINCE MAXCANDY FLOSS21:13.40 
1966SAJC BREEDERS STAKES STORM QUEEN5-d6 F    
1966VRC EDWARD MANIFOLD STAKES STORM QUEEN5-d8 FCENDRILLON4   
1966VRC SIRES PRODUCE STAKES STORM QUEEN5-d7 F VERY MERRY  
1966STC GOLDEN SLIPPER STAKES STORM QUEEN5-d6 FACADEMY STAR2VERY MERRY1:12.9 
1966VATC ONE THOUSAND GUINEAS CENDRILLON45-c8 FSTORM QUEENFARMERS DAUGHTER2  
1966VRC GEORGE ADAMS STORM QUEEN5-d8 FWOAMBRAHEROIC STONE  
1966CHAMPAGNE STAKES STORM QUEEN5-d6 FCANDY FLOSS2ACADEMY STAR21:10.0 
1966VATC CAULFIELD GUINEAS STORM QUEEN5-d8 F    
1966MVRC MOONEE VALLEY STAKES STORM QUEEN5-d8 FPHARAON5   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 43 minutes ago at 9:28pm
I have a collection of racehorse records on my blog that tallies 346 and more off line that brings the tally to 475.  Of the 475 there are 68 females (14.3%) and of those only 8 are not on this list. 

*Acrasia :   My collection contains every Melbourne Cup winner and she gets the nod as the first race mare to win the Cup.  Fillies had won but never a mare. No champion though a solid performer on the racetrack.

*Alice Hawthorn (1849): An ancient, the best horse in Victoria during the 1850's, but as NSW's Veno proved in 1857, nowhere near the best horse in the colonies.  I include her as a historical curiousity.

Canny Lass (1982): She won MVRC William Reid S G1, VATC Marlboro Cup G1,Toorak Handicap G1 and later distinguished herself as a very good broodmare.

Claudette (1937) : She is a bit of a Melbourne legend.  She improved out of sight in 1943 to win the Easter Cup before winning the Grand National Hurdle when it was a good race.  She returned in the Spring to win the Williamstown Cup (when it was a very good race), and the following spring, won the Herbert Power Handicap.  A crowd favorite rather than a champion.

Merlene (1993) :  A brilliant juvenile, winner of 5 of her six starts, and carries on the old C2 colonial family

Shaybisc (1977) : Although she only won one Group 1 race (the AJC Sires) she beat the boys consistently in lesser events  and was a multiple blacktype producer.

*Sister Olive (1918) : She only won 2 of her 37 starts, her debut in the Maribyrnong Trial Stakes and, as a 3YO filly, the Melbourne Cup.  She was out of a half sister to Comedy King and is the fourth dam of Tobin Bronze and the fifth dam of Galena Boy.  Not a champion but an important filly in the history of the Australian turf.

Yir Tiz (1977) : Top flight NZ mare, winner of 21 of her 34 starts.  Never unplaced. Fabulous record in NZ but her best (only ?) win in Australia was the Newcastle Newmarket although she was runner up to Watney in the Stradbroke.  Dam of the champion NZ sprinter Mr.Tiz and later sent to Japan.

 * - record on blog

Out of that lot I would probably only consider Canny Lass to be suitable for the Greatest Female Racehorses list.

https://horsesoftheyears.blogspot.com/

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