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Australasia's 100 greatest female racehorses

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Tontonan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 12:05am
By the time we start pruning this list of some of its fat Begonia Belle might be required yet.  

She is just the sort of  mare who would be acclaimed as a champion if she had the luxury of all those mares races that we have today.  Instead she did it the hard way in open company and her record is very impressive to the Autumn of her 3YO season before she makes an underwhelming trip to Queensland.   

Back in Melbourne in the Spring as a 4YO she is honest enough but in the Autumn, just as it seems her form has moderated, she unleashes with narrow defeat on a heavy track in the Oakleigh Plate then wins the Newmarket in record time and romps home over a mile in the Alister Clark Stakes to close out her career.  

I think she is a legitimate candidate.  Thumbs Up

Another that has been overlooked is Ortensia.  Overshadowed by the great Black Caviar (they only actually met once, in the VRC Sprint Classic and BC beat her third by more than 6 lengths) Ortensia has an exceptionally good international record winning Group 1 races in Australia, Dubai and England. 

Principal wins

2011 WATC Winterbottom Stakes AUS-G1 1200m 
2012 Al Quoz Sprint UAE-G1 1000m 
2012 Nunthorpe Stakes GB-G1 1000m 
2012 King George Stakes GB-G2 1000m
2009 QTC Cup AUS-G2 1300m 
2009 WATC Winterbottom Stakes AUS-G2 1200m 
2008 MRC Thousand Guineas Prelude AUS-G3 1400m 
2010 AJC Galaxy AUS-G1 1100m (But then disqualified)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 3:43pm
I would like to apply a criteria excluding fillies and mares from the list that have not raced in Australia.  I am more than happy to generate a separate list for New Zealand fillies and mares but it will make life a hell of a lot easier if we leave those off who never made the trip across the Tasman.

I would also take off those fillies and mares that raced in Australia but did not win a stakes races.

That would remove the following 11 from the list -

Hilda (NZ) Cynisca (NZ) Lady Zetland (NZ) Warstep (NZ) Silver Scorn (NZ) Yahabeebe (NZ) Soneri (NZ) Sea Spray (NZ) Show Gate (NZ) Battle Eve (NZ)  Snap (NZ) 

There are some champions there but I don't feel confident of assessing the fillies and mares of New Zealand or assessing the quality of their NZ records.  

If the criteria was extended to exclude fillies and mares who have not won a Group 1 (or equivalent) race in Australia then Seachange (NZ) La Mer (NZ) wouldn't make the cut either.  

Cruciform would stay because although it is debatable whether the AJC Spring Stakes was a Group 1 equivalent race she did beat Wakeful in winning it.  Tycoon Lil (NZ) hangs by a thread owing to her win in the Canterbury Guineas. 

I would replace them with these :

Begonia Belle,  Canny Lass, Champagne (NZ), Jezabeel (NZ), Ortensia and Delicacy

And the list would look like this ....

1850....Zoe*
1865....Barbelle*
1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1876....Petrea*
1891....Quiver*
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
1900....Marvel Loch*

 
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1911....Carlita
1911....Tarquette*
1911....Wilari
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1920....Frances Tressady*
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
1929....Waltzing Lily*
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1941....Tea Rose
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl
1957....Lady Sybil (NZ)*
1958....Indian Summer*
1960....Ripa*
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1961....Citius*
1963....Storm Queen*
1964....Lowland (NZ)
1964....Begonia Belle*
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1969....Toltrice
1971....Cap D'Antibes
 
 
1971....Leica Show*
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1975....La Mer (NZ)*
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 
1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc (NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1982....Canny Lass*
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1984....Bravery*
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza (NZ)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1991....Circles Of Gold
1992....Jezabeel*
1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1994....Champagne (NZ)*
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2002....Seachange (NZ)
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2005....Ortensia*
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2007....Red Tracer*
2007....Shamrocker (NZ)*
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Appearance*
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)
2008....Mosheen*
2011....Winx
2011....Delicacy*
2012....English
2012....Jameka

 

119 entries

If anyone objects lodge a protest by all means.  

Otherwise I think we just about have the possibilities covered and can move on to deciding which 19 can be cut from the list to bring it back to 100.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 4:12pm
I'm glad you have included Lady Sybil Tontonan, another fav. fwiw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 5:00pm
It may be that Lady Sybil was simply a superior wet tracker, but there is a bit more to her than that.  

She famous for one campaign, in the Spring of 1960 when she won 7 of 8 starts...

WON VATC Elsternwick Stakes (Slow) x 2½ lengths
WON MRC Berwick Handicap (Slow) x 6 lengths
WON MVRC Moonee Valley Stakes (Slow) neck to Samson
WON VRC Edward Manifold Stakes (Heavy) x 10 lengths
WON VATC Caulfield Guineas (Heavy) x 3 lengths to Sky High
3rd VATC Thousand Guineas (Good)  Head x 2 lengths  Wenona Girl 1st; Impulsive 3rd (dam of Reckless)
WON VRC Oaks Stakes (Heavy) x 2 lengths
WON VATC Sandown Guineas (Slow) x neck

At that point she had 18 starts for 9 wins 3 seconds and 1 third and the scalps of a couple of Hall of Famers to her credit.  But then she totally lost form and did not win again in a further 13 starts and mid way through her 4YO season she was bought by Nelson Bunker hunt and exported to the USA.  

She proved an excellent broodmare producing Amerigo Lady who was a multiple Graded stakes winner in the USA including the Gr.1 Firenze Hcp (defeating Shuvee no less) and the Hollywood Oaks. 

She also produced Brigand who returned to Australia as a sire and produced Cole Diesel and River Rough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Summer Regent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 10:43pm
Good idea with the criteria for the elimination of those New Zealanders, Tontonan. It'll be harder to get consensus on the final 100 though.

For the sake of completeness, one New Zealander which could be considered is the Summertime mare, Stellar Belle (1963), which raced here as Star Belle. 

She was the best NZ 3yo of her season with the Derbies/St Leger plus the Oaks, although she was only 3rd behind Farmer's Daughter in the 1966 VRC Oaks and unplaced when Cendrillon upset 3/1 on Storm Queen in the 1000 Guineas. 

She won 18 races including the following (4 current G1s)

1966 Wakeful Stakes

1966 ARC Great Northern Derby

1966 CJC NZ Oaks

1966 ARC Great Northern Guineas

1966 WRC Desert Gold Stakes

1966 ARC Ladies Mile

1967 Wellington Derby

1967 Craiglee Stakes

1967 Liston Stakes

1967 Turnbull Stakes


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarriSymbol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2018 at 2:10pm
In the Caulfield Cup of 1996 the runs of Arctic Scent (1992) and Saleous (1992) were better than that of Circles Of Gold (1991).
Arctic Scent won the race and Saleous, an on pacer, missed the start badly and made up many many lengths to finish sixth.
At their next start in the Mackinnon, Saleous beat home both Circles Of Gold and Arctic Scent.

A case could be made that both Saleous and Arctic Scent have equal or even superior records to Circles Of Gold.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 1:29am
I agree.  Circles of Gold is one of the first I would take off.  She only won 1 Group 1 race and that was age and sex restricted.  I think she was originally included (along with a few others) because djebel was in two minds regarding whether the mares breeding record was relevant.  

I'd make the same argument regarding Bravery and Toltrice and Gay Poss : Their records as broodmares has been influential in their selection.

The only criteria we had was the thread title 

Australasia's 100 greatest female racehorses


If it had of been 'greatest Thoroughbred fillies and mares' then their breeding record would matter, but as it is 'greatest female racehorses' the breeding record doesn't matter at all.

As 100 is the magic number we need to weed 17 from the current list...

1850....Zoe*
1865....Barbelle*
1867.....Florence
1869.....Lurline (NZ)
1873.....Briseis
1876....Petrea*
1891....Quiver*
1892.....Auraria
1894.....La Carabine
1896.....Wakeful
1898....Cruciform (NZ)
1900....Gladsome (NZ)
1900....Sweet Nell
1900....Marvel Loch*

 
1902....Lady Wallace
1906....Lady Medallist(NZ)
1911....Carlita
1911....Tarquette*
1911....Wilari
1912....Desert Gold (NZ)
1918....Furious
1920....Frances Tressady*
1922....Valicare
1929....Cuddle (NZ)
1929....Waltzing Lily*
1933....Rivette  ntb
1937....Tranquil Star
1945....Flight
1941....Rainbird
1941....Tea Rose
1946....Chicquita
1947....True Course
1952....Evening Peal
1955....Wiggle
1957....Wenona Girl
1957....Lady Sybil (NZ)*
1958....Indian Summer*
1960....Ripa*
1961....Light Fingers (NZ)
1961....Citius*
1963....Storm Queen*
1964....Lowland (NZ)
1964....Begonia Belle*
1966....Gay Poss (NZ)
1967....Dual Choice
1969....Analie (NZ)
1970....Leilani (NZ)
1969....Toltrice
 
 
 
1971....Cap D'Antibes
1971....Leica Show*
1972....Denise's Joy
1972....Maybe Mahal
1972....Toy Show
1973....Desirable
1973....Surround (NZ)
1975....My Blue Denim (NZ)
1978....November Rain
1978....Rose Of Kingston
1979....Emancipation
 

59

1981....Spirit Of Kingston
1981....Tristarc (NZ)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ)
1982....Heat Of The Moment
1982....Canny Lass*
1983....Bounding Away
1983....Horlicks (NZ)
1983....Special
1984....Bravery*
1985....Research
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)
1986....Courtza (NZ)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ)
1987....Mannerism
1987....Triscay
1989....Burst
1989....Miltak (NZ)
1989....Skating
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)
1990....Angst
1990....Electronic (NZ)
1991....Circles Of Gold
1992....Jezabeel*

1993....Dane Ripper
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)
1994....Champagne (NZ)*
1995....Grand Archway
1995....Sunline (NZ)
1996....Miss Pennymoney
1996....Spinning Hill
1997....Belle du Jeur
1997....Ethereal (NZ)
1997....Unwordly
1998....Republic Lass
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)
1999....Private Steer
2000...Shamekha
2001...Alinghi
2001...Lotteria
2001...Miss Andretti
2003....Hot Danish
2003....Miss Finland
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)
2005....Typhoon Tracy
2005....Ortensia*
2006....Black Caviar
2006....More Joyous (NZ)
2007....Pinker Pinker
2007....Red Tracer*
2007....Shamrocker (NZ)*
2008....Atlantic Jewel
2008....Appearance*
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)
2008....Mosheen*
2011....Winx
2011....Delicacy*
2012....English
2012....Jameka

 
58

Hall of Famers in Bold
*
= addition to original list

Removed from original list :

Hilda (NZ) Cynisca (NZ) Lady Zetland (NZ) Warstep (NZ) Silver Scorn (NZ) Yahabeebe (NZ) Soneri (NZ) Sea Spray (NZ) Show Gate (NZ) Battle Eve (NZ)  Snap (NZ) 
Reason : NZ mares who either never started in Australia or never won a stakes race in Australia

La Mer (NZ) and Seachange (NZ) and Stellar Belle (NZ)
Reason : Never won a Group 1 race (or equivalent) in Australia
______________________________________________________________________

Following Warri Symbol's lead, if you have any suggestions as to which 17 horses should be cut from the list please post them...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarriSymbol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 8:08pm
No spot for Forensics (2004)?

3x Gr1
3x Gr2
3x Gr3

Slipper winner.
Myer Stakes winner.
Queen Of The Turf winner.
Golden Rose (G2) winner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarriSymbol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 8:35pm
Electronic (1990) is lucky to be there.
2x Gr1
A Metropolitan and a weak Ranvet where just two of the eight horse field had previously won a Group One event.
Both her Group Ones being against the blokes is a plus, to be fair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 8:46pm
Joanne, I am not sure she deserves to be dropped.

If we are going to be tough we have to look at a horses form not just the fact she won big name races.

There will be some mares who ran into top class horses and were beaten whilst other mares have run in diabolical eras.

When Joanne was the top female sprinter the only group 1 sprint race in Sydney was a handicap, The Galaxy.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarriSymbol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

JIf we are going to be tough we have to look at a horses form not just the fact she won big name races.

There will be some mares who ran into top class horses and were beaten whilst other mares have run in diabolical eras.


e.g
Gold Edition
2x Gr1 winner.

Won an Ascot Vale(Coolmore) at Flem.
Won a Gr1 Manikato at everyones fave track.

But her runs in top open age Group One races were excellent considering she nearly always led.

Doomben 10,000 2nd, half len behind Takeover Target.
Newmarket 2nd, less than half len from Miss Andretti.
Stradbroke 2nd to Snipers Bullet.
Age Classic (Darley) 2nd to Miss Andretti.
Lighning Stakes 4th to Apache Cat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Joanne, I am not sure she deserves to be dropped.

If we are going to be tough we have to look at a horses form not just the fact she won big name races.

There will be some mares who ran into top class horses and were beaten whilst other mares have run in diabolical eras. 

When Joanne was the top female sprinter the only group 1 sprint race in Sydney was a handicap, The Galaxy.


Joanne wasn't dropped.  You didn't put her on the original list.

Should be add her to the list ?  I don't have a problem with that but if you want her on you have to take one (or preferably two) off.  

Warri suggested we drop Circles of Gold and then nominated Forensics.  I'll take that as a straight swap.

I am inclined to agree with Electronic but at least she won Gr.1 races that were not age and sex restricted.   

Two points I would make :

1. This list needs to be as objective as possible.  It  needs to be about Achievement rather than subjective opinion about ability.  It has to be about Proof rather than potential.  What the horses actually proved themselves able of doing rather than subjective opinions about what they might have been capable of. 

2. There is a notional hierarchy of achievement.  Winning a Group 1 race open to all ages and both sexes is a superior achievement to winning an age and/or sex restricted race.  

I am not doubting that Angst or Unworldly had ability and potential but the fact is they did not win a stakes race that wasn't age and sex restricted.  

Joanne may well have been a great mare but she is only as good as her achievements, not what she might have done if there were more Group 1 sprints in Sydney. 

Finally I put this list together a few days ago of the 17 I would cut from the list largely on the basis of points 1 & 2 above.

1. Circles of Gold   2. Angst   3.  Unworldly   4. Lotteria   5.  Red Tracer  6. Quiver  7. Frances Tressady  8. Gay Poss  9. Toltrice  10. Bravery   11. Barbelle   12. Indian Summer 13. Electronic  14. Lady Medallist  15. Tarquette  16. Burst   17. Courtza

Just my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 9:49pm
Lotteria beat Fields Of Omagh in a Cox Plate.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 10:38pm
If we were to have a knock out comp to see who should stay how would the vote go for

Triscay Vs Jezabeel
Triscay Vs Miltak



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2018 at 11:01pm
Greatest Australian Female Racehorses since 1979 with tally of Group 1 wins
 
1978....November Rain (3)
1978....Rose Of Kingston (3)
1979....Emancipation (5)
1981....Spirit Of Kingston (3)
1981....Tristarc (NZ) (5)
1982....Empire Rose (NZ) (2)
1982....Heat Of The Moment (2)
1982....Canny Lass*(3)
1983....Bounding Away (6)
1983....Horlicks (NZ) (6)
1983....Special (3)
1984....Bravery* (2)
1985....Research (4)
1985....Riverina Charm (NZ)(3)
1986....Courtza (NZ) (2)
1986....Joanne (0)
1987....Let's Elope (NZ) (5)
1987....Mannerism (4)
1987....Triscay (5)
1989....Burst (3)
1989....Miltak (NZ)(3)
1989....Skating(2)
1989....Slight Chance (NZ)(6)
1990....Angst (1)
1990....Electronic (NZ)(2)
1991....Circles Of Gold(1)
1992....Jezabeel*
(2)
1993....Dane Ripper
(4)
1994....Tycoon Lil (NZ)(3)
1994....Champagne (NZ)*
(2)
1995....Grand Archway(4)
1995....Sunline (NZ) (13)
1996....Miss Pennymoney(2)
1996....Spinning Hill(3)
1997....Belle du Jour (2)
1997....Ethereal (NZ)(4)
1997....Unwordly(1)
1998....Republic Lass(2)
1999....Makybe Diva (GB)(7)
1999....Private Steer
(3)
2000...Shamekha(3)
2001...Alinghi(4)
2001...Lotteria(2)
2001...Miss Andretti (5)
2003....Hot Danish(2)
2003....Miss Finland (5)
2003....Tuesday Joy (NZ)(3)
2003....Gold Edition (2)
2004....Forensics (3)
2005....Typhoon Tracy (6)
2005....Ortensia*(3)
2006....Black Caviar(15)
2006....More Joyous (NZ)(8)
2007....Pinker Pinker (1)
2007....Red Tracer*(2)
2007....Shamrocker (NZ)*(3)
2008....Atlantic Jewel(4)
2008....Appearance*(4)
2008....Silent Achiever (NZ)(4)
2008....Mosheen*(4)
2011....Winx (17)
2011....Delicacy*
(2)
2012....English (2)
2012....Jameka  (3)

 
58
         
17 - Winx
15 - Black Caviar
13- Sunline

8- More Joyous
7- Makybe Diva
6 - Typhoon Tracy
Slight Chance
Horlicks
Bounding Away
5- Let's Elope
Tristarc
Emancipation
Triscay
Miss Finland
Miss Andretti

 
4- Dane Ripper
Research
Mannerism
Grand Archway
Ethereal
Alinghi
Atlantic Jewel
Appearance
Silent Achiever
Mosheen
3 - November Rain
Rose Of Kingston
Spirit Of Kingston
Canny Lass*
Special
Riverina Charm (NZ)
Miltak (NZ)
Tycoon Lil (NZ)(3)
Spinning Hill(3)
Private Steer(3)
Shamekha(3)
Tuesday Joy (NZ)
Forensics
Ortensia*(3)
Shamrocker (NZ)
Jameka 
2 - Empire Rose (NZ)
Heat Of The Moment
Bravery*
Courtza (NZ)
Champagne (NZ)
Miss Pennymoney
Belle du Jour
Republic Lass
Lotteria
Hot Danish
Gold Edition
Red Tracer
Delicacy
English
Electronic
1- Angst
Circles of Gold
Unworldly
Circles of Gold

0- Joanne

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 12:35am
Divine Madonna (2002)  Won 8 of 26   4 Group 1 Myer, Toork, QOT, Emirates
My Gold Hope (1977) Won 8 of 25,     3 Group 1 All Aged, Doncaster, Railway(nz)  

The more you look the more you find.  

I get a feeling more energy will be spent on deciding the bottom 50 than the top 50.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Summer Regent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 10:37am
It's going to be a challenge to limit a list like this to 100 but a bigger challenge would be to list them in order 1-100.

November Rain was one of my favourites but she didn't win a G1 outside her 3 Oaks. Nevertheless, I reckon she deserves a place on a list like this because of the quality of those wins, although that may be just a flawed memory.

Lady Medallist is one of Peter Pring's 100 Champions 1900-1970s. The Caulfield Cup was her only current G1 win but she also won a Craven Plate and Eclipse Stakes which were G1 equivalents in the early 1900s. Perhaps she'd be in front of Rainbird which won the Melbourne Cup in a not very strong year and Rainbird didn't win much else.

Delicacy didn't win outside WA or SA. A Sydney or Melbourne win would have to be a basic for admittance to a list like this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 4:47pm
The problem I have with November Rain is that like Evening Peal and Surround she won the three Oaks but she only won 1 race against the males, surviving a protest, in the AJC St Leger.  Otherwise, each time she took on the colts she was beaten (9th in Canterbury Guineas and 6th of 8 in the QTC Derby).   

She was certainly the best staying filly of the season but that's where her career ended.  Surround beat the colts and won the Cox Plate.  Evening Peal won the Melbourne Cup. On the grounds of achievement November Rain is a long third....

...but that doesn't mean she wont make the cut for the top 100. 

I revisited Lady Medallist and I must admit a 6 length win in the Caulfield Cup in record time is a strong recommendation but I still have some reservations as she was not the most consistent mare and while she beat Malt King in the Craven Plate that outstanding galloper had her measure on at least four other occasions (Metropolitan, Caulfield Stakes and two All Aged Stakes).  In 26 Australian starts she only managed to win 4 races albeit good ones (Craven Plate, Caulfield Cup, October Sks, Eclipse Sks)  

I certainly wouldn't regard the Eclipse (held on the middle day of the Caulfield meeting) to be = Gr.1 though.  She beat Moe, the VRC Oaks winner from the previous season (her only other stakes placing) and Flavian whose claim to fame was winning the Hotham Handicap two years earlier.

But tell me this... is a all aged unrestricted Gr.1 race notionally superior to a Gr.1 races restricted by age and sex ?  

If it is then Lady Medallist is safe but November Rain might not be. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 5:21pm
One of the things you or Djebel listed at the start was consistency.  Which would knock out a few.  But mares can be like Emancipation who would win five straight and then run last etc.  There was no inbetween ground.  She just would train off and obviously until race day didn't show sure signs that she had trained off.  Also you would have to take into account a smaller mare who had great ability but if it was a big field she might of been knocked out of contention by a bigger runner or even injured.  Sometimes these happenings have been lost in the past so we don't know why an obviously superior animal got beaten by horses without their ability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Summer Regent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 6:17pm
With Lady Medallist and the Eclipse Stakes, it was more the quality of the winners in the previous decade
(1902-3 Wakeful, 1906-7 Poseidon, 1908-9 Alawa, 1911 Comedy King) but, you're right, like Desert Gold and several other New Zealanders, Lady Medallist had a much better record in NZ.

But tell me this... is a all aged unrestricted Gr.1 race notionally superior to a Gr.1 races restricted by age and sex ?

It's hard to judge some top-class horses that don't race on from restricted 2yo and 3yo G1s. I'd argue that Wilari with no good wins outside restricted G1s was inferior to a mare like Traquette who won a Caulfield Stakes, Melbourne Stakes, C.M. Lloyd, Linlithgow and Memsie Stakes but had no 3yo classic wins.

Furious, I think Emancipation would be in the top 20 of the list. She was popular but underrated because of the occasional flop but 5 of her 6 G1s were in open company. Her Cox Plate failure and her final campaign in Brisbane counted against her, but wouldn't she be the best mare of the 80s?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 6:22pm
I am surprised Emancipation is not a Hall Of Famer.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 6:32pm
Furious,

Using Emancipation as an example of inconsistency is down right peculiar.  She won 19 of 28 with a 68% strike rate !  There are an awful lot of mares on this list that wont get anywhere near that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 8:42pm
These two are closely related but by very different sires....
TRAQUETTE (1911)

TRAQUAIR (GB)
ch. 1904
AYRSHIRE (GB)
b. 1885
HAMPTON (GB)
b. 1872
LORD CLIFDEN (GB)
b. 1860
NEWMINSTER (GB)b. 1848
THE SLAVE (GB)b. 1852
LADY LANGDEN (GB)
br. 1868
KETTLEDRUM (GB)ch. 1858
HARICOT (GB)br. 1847
ATALANTA (GB)
b. 1878
GALOPIN (GB)
br. 1872
 VEDETTE (GB)br. 1854
FLYING DUCHESS (GB)b. 1853
FERONIA (GB)
b. 1868
THORMANBY (GB)ch. 1857
WOODBINE (GB)b. 1860
CHELANDRY (GB)*
b. 1894
GOLDFINCH (GB)
b. 1889
ORMONDE (GB)
b. 1883
BEND OR (GB)ch. 1877
LILY AGNES (GB)b. 1871
THISTLE (GB)
b. 1875
SCOTTISH CHIEF (GB)b. 1861
THE FLOWER SAFETY (GB)br. 1860
ILLUMINATA (GB)*
br. 1877
ROSICRUCIAN (GB)
b. 1865
BEADSMAN (GB)blk/br. 1855
MADAME EGLENTINE (GB)b. 1857
PARAFFIN (GB)
b. 1870
BLAIR ATHOL (GB)ch. 1861
PARADIGM (GB)br. 1852
SIMMERETTE (AUS)
br. 1906
SIMMER (GB)
br. 1894
ST SIMON (GB)
br. 1881
GALOPIN (GB)
br. 1872
 VEDETTE (GB)br. 1854
FLYING DUCHESS (GB)b. 1853
ST. ANGELA (GB)
b. 1865
KING TOM (GB)b. 1851
ADELINE (GB)b. 1851
DUTCH OVEN (GB)
br. 1879
DUTCH SKATER (FR)
br. 1866
THE FLYING DUTCHMAN (GB)br. 1846
FULVIE (FR)ch. 1856
CANTINIERE (GB)
br. 1870
STOCKWELL (GB)ch. 1849
CANTINE (GB)br. 1856
ETRA WEENIE (AUS)
br. 1889
TRENTON (NZ)
br. 1881
MUSKET (GB)
b. 1867
TOXOPHILITE (GB)b. 1855
WEST AUSTRALIAN MARE (GB)b. 1857
FRAILTY (AUS)
br. 1877
GOLDSBROUGH (AUS)b. 1870
FLORA MCIVOR (AUS)b. 1866
NELLIE (AUS)
br. 1876
TIM WHIFFLER (GB)
br. 1859
VAN GALEN (GB)br. 1853
SYBIL (IRE)br. 1851
SAPPHO (AUS)
gr. 1862
SIR HERCULES (AUS)br. 1843
SAPPHO (AUS)gr. 1847

As a broodmare Traquette produced Powerscourt who was as brilliant a juvenile as she was who went on to sire a Melbourne Cup winner - Comic Court.  He also sired Wee Cushla, the dam of Proud Miss and grand dam of Kingston Rose

WILARI  (1908)

WALLACE (AUS)
ch. 1892
CARBINE (NZ)
b. 1885
MUSKET (GB)
b. 1867
 TOXOPHILITE (GB)
b. 1855
LONGBOW (GB)b. 1849
LEGERDEMAIN (GB)b. 1846
WEST AUSTRALIAN MARE (GB)
b. 1857
WEST AUSTRALIAN (GB)b. 1850
BROWN BESS (GB)br. 1844 *
MERSEY (GB)
ch. 1874
KNOWSLEY (GB)
b. 1859
STOCKWELL (GB)ch. 1849
ORLANDO MARE (GB)b. 1853
CLEMENCE (GB)
ch. 1865
NEWMINSTER (GB)b. 1848
EULOGY (GB)b. 1843
MELODIOUS (AUS)
ch. 1882
GOLDSBROUGH (AUS)
b. 1870
 FIREWORKS (AUS)
b. 1864
KELPIE (GB)ch. 1855
GASLIGHT (GB)blk. 1850
SYLVIA (AUS)
b. 1864
FISHERMAN (GB) br. 1853
JULIET (GB)br. 1851
MELODY (AUS)
br. 1875
THE BARB (AUS)
blk. 1863
SIR HERCULES (AUS) br. 1843
FAIR ELLEN (AUS)ch. 1853
MERMAID (AUS)
br. 1865
FISHERMAN (GB) br. 1853
SWEETHEART (AUS)br. 1858
MURNA (AUS)
b. 1899
HAUT BRION (GB)
br. 1890
ST SIMON (GB)
br. 1881
GALOPIN (GB)
br. 1872
VEDETTE (GB)br. 1854
FLYING DUCHESS (GB)b. 1853
ST. ANGELA (GB)
b. 1865
KING TOM (GB)b. 1851
ADELINE (GB)b. 1851
BONNIE LASSIE (GB)
b. 1875
BROTHER TO STRAFFORD (GB)
br. 1860
YOUNG MELBOURNE (GB)b. 1855
GAMEBOY MARE (GB)br. 1853
CHIEFTAINS DAUGHTER (GB)
ch. 1859
LORD OF THE ISLES (GB)b. 1852
SUNFLOWER (GB)b. 1847
ETRA WEENIE (AUS)
br. 1889
TRENTON (NZ)
br. 1881
MUSKET (GB)
b. 1867
 TOXOPHILITE (GB)b. 1855
WEST AUSTRALIAN MARE (GB)b. 1857
FRAILTY (AUS)
br. 1877
GOLDSBROUGH (AUS) b. 1870
FLORA MCIVOR (AUS)b. 1866
NELLIE (AUS)
br. 1876
TIM WHIFFLER (GB)
br. 1859
VAN GALEN (GB)br. 1853
SYBIL (IRE)br. 1851
SAPPHO (AUS)
gr. 1862
SIR HERCULES (AUS) br. 1843
SAPPHO (AUS)gr. 1847

Wilari was owned by Herbert Power.  In the Spring of 1912 she was well supported for the Caulfield Cup but 'burst a blood vessel in her head' during Lady Medallist's Eclipse.  (The Eclipse was later renamed the Herbert Power Hcp).  'Bursting a blood vessel in the head' was how a bleeding attack was described in those days and while she was scratched from the Caulfield Cup she was incredibly asked to run in the Melbourne Stakes (finished last with Lady Medallist) and the Melbourne Cup  (last, and Lady Medallist pulled up).  She lost all form before winning the Epsom Handicap - at Mordialloc - to close out her career int he Autumn.  Wilari died in foal the following year.  Her sister, Wilari's Sister, bred on and produced the 1924 Epsom Handicap (at Randwick) winner Blackadder and the  Eclipse Stakes winner Burrabudeen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Summer Regent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 10:10pm
Thanks for the pedigrees, Tontonan. A common denominator for nearly all the champion mares up to WWII seems to be some Musket blood.  

How Now (1972) is another on the fringes; a Caulfield Cup, Caulfield Stakes, AJC Oaks and Underwood Stakes winner. She was the beaten favourite in Surround's Cox Plate and finished a 1.5 lengths second in Surround's Orr Stakes win. Her Caulfield Cup win was a comfortable one over Battle Heights and Van Der Hum. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WarriSymbol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2018 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by Summer Regent Summer Regent wrote:


Delicacy didn't win outside WA or SA. A Sydney or Melbourne win would have to be a basic for admittance to a list like this.

Surely who a horse beats is more important than the venue.
Horses who have finished runner up to Delicacy include...
A Sydney group one winner (Fenway)
A multiple Hong Kong group one winner (Werther)
A multiple Melbourne group one winner (Black Heart Bart)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Summer Regent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2018 at 12:00pm
Warri, Delicacy did beat some very good horses but the G1 fields in Melbourne and Sydney are generally much deeper in quality. If any Australian horse was to be considered an outstanding galloper you'd expect them to have been tested in the Eastern States. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2018 at 2:03pm
Not inconsistency Tontonan.  She either won or ran badly.  While she was on song she won.  But she had a limit to her races and sometimes the trainer took her over that.  That's what I meant with other mares also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2018 at 2:43pm
I am surprised I did not have Secret Admirer as an original selection. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saintly96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2018 at 12:07am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am surprised I did not have Secret Admirer as an original selection. 



Loved that mare and Streama too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2018 at 1:36am
I think Warri raises a good point regarding Delicacy but it is likely to be academic.  There are too many great mares on this list for a filly that won an 'off Broadway' Derby and Oaks to get a gurnsey in any case.  

I would include Steama  before Secret Admirer.  Streama won 10 races at 29.4%.  She won 4 Group 1 races  - the Flight, ATC Oaks, George Main and Doomben Cup - and a listed race in Ireland at her only 

Sea Siren , a winner of 7 of 17 starts (41.1%) including 3 open Group 1 sprints (BTC Cup, Doomben 10,000 and Manikato Stakes) and a listed race in Ireland has claims.

Secret Admirer  only won 3 races in her entire career at 10.7% (28 starts).    She won a maiden, beat More Strawberries in the Flight Stakes by a ½ head and won one of the weakest Epsom's you are likely to see.  The first 7 horses across the line were on the minimum, 14 of the 17 starters were on the minimum and the placegetters were all mares.  I cant have her.   She just isn't 'great' enough for me. 
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