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ARTIE SCHILLER & HUSSONET

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willy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Feb 2007 at 9:08pm

Even though he's a long shot for this region .. BREEDERS CUP turf mile winner and all ..  what is he likely to stand at?



Edited by Gay3 - 16 Jun 2018 at 7:19pm
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$22kThumbs%20Down
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$22,000 a shot I believe.
 
He seems to be a capable horse, and he ran on turf, so that ticks one box doesn't it?
 
One of his family has already stood out here - Prince True, got a couple of Stakeswinners.
 
He goes up against the Darley Vic horses, Don't know whether that is a plus for him or will be a tough ask.
 
I know the name means little (a rose by any other name....) but it grates on me a bit, for some strange unknown reason. Maybe I should seek professional help. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote equinegal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2007 at 9:28pm
For a first season sire, IMO it seems a bit steep at $20K. Time will tell I suppose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Can Of Worms Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2007 at 9:47pm
An interesting assessment of him on the old forum as a dirt tracker Willy. I have only looked at 9 out of 10 of his wins and they were all on the turf ... I can only assume the 10th was on the turf also. What does he need to do to be considered a turf horse? Confused
 
Set an 1800m turf course record at Belmont running 1:45.50 which is phenominally fast. Alsn ran 1:34.10 over 1600m on the turf as a 2yo. Shocked
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mel_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2007 at 10:35pm
Fee's a bit steep considering he stands for US$15k, and the AUS$22k equates to US$17,300!    Glad to see a son of El Prado here though, and he was a quality horse, be interesting to see how he is received by mare owners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2007 at 10:55pm
He's from an active gr1 family and has got to be a chance, but not for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kingston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2007 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by ilalastud ilalastud wrote:

$22,000 a shot I believe.
 
He seems to be a capable horse, and he ran on turf, so that ticks one box doesn't it?
 
One of his family has already stood out here - Prince True, got a couple of Stakeswinners.
 
He goes up against the Darley Vic horses, Don't know whether that is a plus for him or will be a tough ask.
 
I know the name means little (a rose by any other name....) but it grates on me a bit, for some strange unknown reason. Maybe I should seek professional help. 
 
 
He was named after a family friend by his owners, the Entenmanns - who were famed, amongst other things, for the Seinfeld episode where Peterman buys a famous piece of cake.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2007 at 1:25am
Originally posted by Can Of Worms Can Of Worms wrote:

An interesting assessment of him on the old forum as a dirt tracker Willy. I have only looked at 9 out of 10 of his wins and they were all on the turf ... I can only assume the 10th was on the turf also. What does he need to do to be considered a turf horse? Confused
 
Set an 1800m turf course record at Belmont running 1:45.50 which is phenominally fast. Alsn ran 1:34.10 over 1600m on the turf as a 2yo. Shocked
 
 
 
COW .. I searched the RACING POST race record of this horse and he was only recorded for 3 or 4 turf starts. You might be right which would put a different light on him because his times in 2 or 3 other races [which were not recorded as turf] were fast.
 
Particularly the 1.45 over 9f as you rightly point out.
 
Possibly you can clarify.
 
I could live with EL PRADO because he is undoubtedly an upgrader in the USA .. and his 34% turf earnings is well adequate.
 
His damsire gives me the screamers for downunder .. and ARTIE didn't possess a decent turn of foot which is so much important for here.
 
He was a real grinder suited to USA conditions. Go out hard .. and keep at it. He was often in or on the lead 200 out and would stick like glue.
 
At $22k I would suggest that he is risky downunder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Can Of Worms Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2007 at 2:26am
Willy, the Racing Post is great for European racing however you might find the Thoroughbred Times stallion directory or Stallion Register a better source for North American racing.
 
His pedigree suggests that he might not throw fast maturers, but that doesn't bother me, although the $22,000 would be a discouragement for a horse that potentially won't throw what the yearling market wants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilalastud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2007 at 4:36am
You could always ask for a small discount. The worst they will say is no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Can Of Worms Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2007 at 5:47am
With a "student discount" I'd give him a go! Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2007 at 5:08pm

Willy,

You are a mile off on Artie Schiller as a racehorse which is typical and unsurprising seeing once again you have made your learned assessment off incomplete data.
 
Artie Schiller made 22 lifetime starts and earned just over US$2m. He started as a 2yo in July up here which is the middle of summer (equivalent of a March 2yo in Australia/NZ) on TURF over 6f at Belmont no less. He came from 10th position, 8 lengths from the lead at the top of the straight to win by a long neck. The clock stopped at 1:10.5
 
He started next on the dirt where he finished 3rd to future SW Readthefootnotes after being caught three wide most of the way. They returned him back over a mile on the turf and he won that in1:34.00 at Belmont (as a two year old no less). He then ran back in a Listed stake race on the turf towards the end of the season where he came from off the speed to be beaten 2 1/4 lengths into second. They closed out his two year old year with a run on the dirt, where he was a well beaten 4th.
 
At three he had one more start on the dirt and failed. His next 15 starts were all on the turf. He won the Breeders' Cup Mile defeating Valixir, Ad Valorem, Gorella, Leroidesanimaux, etc, when he won the Jamaica G2 he set a new course record for the 1 1/8 miles at Belmont Park in 1:45.50 (he carried top weight and won by 5 1/4) and met and beat some of the best horses in North America on the biggest days. Importantly, the only time he ever finished worse than 4th in a race was when he got hammered in the BC Mile in 2004 and never took part. 21 of 22 starts he finished in the first four home.
 
There are other reasons why I think he is not suited to Australia but to suggest that he wasn't up to it as a racehorse is asinine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2007 at 12:00am
Naughty boy BYRON ... as usual.
 
Firstly .. I made it clear to COW that the RACING POST records only had him down for 3 or 4 starts on the turf .. and following his or her post I sought further clarification of that while clearly acknowledging that if the 1.45 and a tick was on the turf at 9f then it was certainly a fair achievement.
 
Secondly .. in most of his later racestarts he was in or on the lead at the 1f or 2f mark in most of his races.
 
Thirdly .. his 2yo form was at the lower level compared with his career best in the BREEDERS CUP mile on turf in 1.36.1 on a yielding track.
 
Fourthly .. he is a far better chance of making it downunder than SOUTHERN IMAGE.
 
The latter is probably worth $2k of mine on a very clever mating .. while ARTIE is probably worth about $8k to $10k.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2007 at 11:39am
Willy,
 
Im happy to be classified as "naughty" rather than "misinformed". I will leave the latter category to you.Big%20smile
 
Based on your judgement Southern Image is in good company...the same judgement that said current leading freshman sire Hussonet was "no hope" and the same judgement that never sent a mare to Redoute's Choice or Zabeel.....but thought Anziyan was the answer.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2007 at 4:05pm
Yes .. ANZIYAN "was the answer" because for very little money I produced possibly the best 3yo in SINGAPORE before he broke his leg.
 
Much better than paying $100k or $275k for some slomo by these other stallions who leave their share ..
 
.. and trying to compete against the studs who sold me the nomination while using every 'sales side' trick that is common to them.
 
I avoid those studs for that reason.
 
As for HUSSONET .. he will never achieve an AEI better than his CI in this region. That is a certainty.
 
But he will be well promoted and over-perceived by a somewhat gullible market .. and by those who are up the bum of those standing him.LOL
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Champ! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2007 at 4:48pm
You're moving the goal posts, Willy. I'm sure you said Hussonet would flat out struggle here. Not his AEI will never be better than his CI. Smells like someone's covering their a#se...
 
You know...it's ok to be wrong...we all make mistakes. However you'll never learn if you fail to accept when you've made a mistake.
 
Unlike you, Willy, most people in this industry understand that you can never know all there is to know. You can never be 100 per cent certain of any decision you make.
 
Those people will enjoy increasing success with persistence while you continue along your 'fool-proof' model...sending mares to brothers of champion sires because it's cheaper and their yearlings will be in sales where 'big studs' don't frequent. Or because you can 'lease' them to owners who race horses on the very competitive Singapore circuit.
 
Good luck with that Thumbs%20Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Can Of Worms Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2007 at 6:45pm

Byron, what are the reasons you don't think he is suited in Australia?

His turf credentials are good. He himself, as we know, was an top grade turf horse, he is by one of the leading turf sires in the USA, his dam won a GR2 on the turf and his granddam won two GR1's and a GR2 on the turf.

Additionally his genetic background looks, at first glance, like it should suit a good percentage of the Australian broodmare population.
 
Interested in your thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2007 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Champ! Champ! wrote:

You're moving the goal posts, Willy. I'm sure you said Hussonet would flat out struggle here. Not his AEI will never be better than his CI. Smells like someone's covering their a#se...
 
You know...it's ok to be wrong...we all make mistakes. However you'll never learn if you fail to accept when you've made a mistake.
 
Unlike you, Willy, most people in this industry understand that you can never know all there is to know. You can never be 100 per cent certain of any decision you make.
 
Those people will enjoy increasing success with persistence while you continue along your 'fool-proof' model...sending mares to brothers of champion sires because it's cheaper and their yearlings will be in sales where 'big studs' don't frequent. Or because you can 'lease' them to owners who race horses on the very competitive Singapore circuit.
 
Good luck with that Thumbs%20Up
 
No CHAMP .. I very seldom get it "wrong" and in HUSSONET's case I'm very confident.
 
Even you will appreciate that a dog sire can leave a high class horse. Even 2.
 
In HUSSONETS case he will be rather like the MONTJEU's & FU PEGS of the local scene where reality will arrive in time to show that many good mares were wasted on stallions not suited to this region but in some cases the progeny have fallen sufficiently to the damside to cover up the weaknesses of the sire.
 
HUSSONET was always going to leave the odd good nag .. because fortunately for him .. they all have mothers .. very good mothers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Champ! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2007 at 8:04pm
I'm indifferent to whether Hussonet will be a commercial success here or not. But I think "even you" can concede he has kicked off his Aussie career in better fashion than Fusaichi Pegasus and Montjeu...
 
Agreed he has had a fantastic start in life considering the quality of mare. But I have seen some fantastic yearlings by him out of the most ordinary mares you will see. As well as great types out of stakes performed mares. As you say more time is needed to see whether he fits in or not, and I too was weary as an older stallion arriving on our shores, but you must say he has made a healthy start...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2007 at 9:26pm

Hussonets here are only 2yo's -and 2yo form can be rather meaningless.Only a small percentage make it to the races at 2-yet many get asked to.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 4:31am
Hussonet has done very well for the first half of the 2yo season and Montjeu did not. There is no comparison between the two.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 4:47am
Champ
 
Despite the press release describing him as a fantastic type, I am less than enthused about him. His sire is a glorious looking horse, built like a brick outhouse which is so atypical for a Sadler's Wells but Artie looks nothing like him. He is tall and angular much more like his broodmare sire Majestic Light.....which is where I get worried. Catrail wasn't a typical Storm Cat to look at and threw tall angluar horses much like the Majestic Light's and if you look at Majestic Light's record as a broodmare sire of sires it leaves a lot to be desired. It is enough to worry me given the requirements for racing in Australia.
 
You also made the comment on Hussonet.....
 
Originally posted by Champ! Champ! wrote:

Agreed he has had a fantastic start in life considering the quality of mare.
 
What makes you think he got a fantastic start given the quality of mare? He stood his first season for $20,000 and was a long way down the totem pole at Arrowfield when it came to the quality of mare that he got from Arrowfield alone. Remember Redoute's Choice, Flying Spur, Danzero, Dehere, French Deputy and Orientate all stood for more than him at the same farm. I'd label the quality good, but far from fantastic in his first season.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Champ! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 6:09am
Fantastic was probably too much...but a better start than most due to his results in Americas...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 6:39am
The jury's out for Hussonet......I have been watching a couple, including a $500K colt at randwick & although he looks a type, he 's showing little on the track..... The trainer is saying that he's glad an owner fronted up with it & that he didn't buy for a client....... Could just need more time .....????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jenkins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 6:39pm
Colin
 
You say that "HUSSONET was always going to leave the odd good nag .. because fortunately for him .. they all have mothers .. very good mothers."
 
Hussonet's best performer to date - Husson Lightning ($346,500 earnings) - is out of Snip Snip, a 1000m maiden winner at Murrumbidgee who never made it to town. There isn't a Group 1 performance in Husson Lightning's 1st 3 dams !
 
Brazen Hussey who won at Pakenham last week only cost $55k as a yearling and is a half-sister to a couple of Listed winners but again there isn't even a Group winner in her first 3 dams.
 
Another winner Canitellya made $72k as a yearling. These are hardly blue-blood prices or mares so your argument that his mares are carrying him is rubbish. Just let it go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 7:40pm
PETER .. you of all people should know that early 2yo form in respect of trying to assess a stallions future can be very misleading. Many of these horses are not high class and do not train on. A lower performed SNIPPETS mare is not to be sneezed at and is probably very much the reason for this 'nag' having the speed to measure up here on firmer turf as an early 2 year old.
 
While I am highly confident that HUSSONET will not measure up to his overall mare opportunity, given time, and that the market will pay excessively for the sometimes good looking progeny [personally I don't mind the look of him] ..
 
.. honestly ..
 
.. while I don't generally like your stallion selection [or influences of] .. I do rate your half brother EKRAAR as a better chance downunder even though the mares he will have covered will be quite inferior to HUSSONETS.
 
I'm predicting EKRAAR to be doing it hard in the marketplace in years 2,3 and 4 .. and I can see a latent revival for him when his stock show some class over 1600m & beyond at 4 plus.
 
HUSSONET, I predict, will have a new home by then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Champ! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by willy willy wrote:

A lower performed SNIPPETS mare is not to be sneezed at and is probably very much the reason for this 'nag' having the speed to measure up here on firmer turf as an early 2 year old.
 
 
Aren't the Snippets' mud larks? I thought the Lunchtime line loved the wet. Maybe you know something different Willy...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bagman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2007 at 11:38pm
Aren't the Snippets' mud larks? I thought the Lunchtime line loved the wet. Maybe you know something different Willy...

Rubbish. The majority of Lunchtimes Sons progeny perform on all surfaces and their winners to runners ratio on fast and good tracks is superior to slow and heavy.
Track Condition Stats for Snippets
             Fast            126    22    18    14    
             Good           3432   509   432   382    
             Dead            721   100   106    62    
             Slow            364    52    40    50    
             Heavy           276    35    31    41    
             Sand              0     0     0     0   0.0   
             Total          4919   718   627   549 14.6

Whilst that's not vastly superior,other sire sons like Integra have a 2 for 60 record for starters on Heavy. Hardly a love of the wet....

Source http://www.virtualformguide.com/stallions.shtml
I don't have one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Champ! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2007 at 12:11am
Using your statistics, Snippets has an overall winners to runners percentage of 14.6% and placegetters to runners of 38.5%.
 
On rain effected tracks his win and place percentages are as follows:
 
Dead: 13.9% and 37.2%
Slow:  14.3% and 39%
Heavy:12.7% and 38.8%
 
As you can see, his stats on ran-effected tracks are more than comparable to his stats on firm tracks and overall.
 
You can draw no conclusion from these stats that states Snippets will help a mud lark produce firm track performers.
 
As you said, Integra's stats are 2 out of 60 (3.3%) on a heavy track. When you compare that to Snippets' stats of 35 out of 276 (12.7%), you can clearly see that Snippets' progeny were more than effective on rain effected ground.
 
In fact I challenge you to find the average percentage for a sire on wet tracks and compare it to Snippets. I would happily bet that Snippets' figures are superior to the average and, naturally, that of most stallions in Australia.
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