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Annenkov

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:00pm
no i dont ,  it is how they are interperated  a bit like 1st season sires , 
because as i know alot can happen in the lead up , many many many different scenarios , why lonhro and niello siblngs  didnt do any good
but the original statement  was based upon my comment  danehill x stormcat was  unproven , well i think they are proven and very well proven , thats all, and statistic show this,  and yes on the computer
 
 and i reckon old taunto got a pretty good deal with annenkov as his pm suggested  ,  and i actually think annenkov s dame line  is better than the danehill line , but that is yet to be seen , and additionally i think  swanz dame line is pretty good as well ,  but like all breeding and people associated with it, have likes and dislikes,  have opinions and information why to and why not , , in the end it doesnt really matter, as long as you get a nice foal and you can get it to the races , for as little as possible ,  and i bet  he certainly isnt paying 22 per say to have is mare there either ,
but thats about the guts of it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by tauto tauto wrote:

What other stallions would you propose in Victoria? I was keen on Armadeus Wolf.
A friend suggested Dylan Thomas but l thought a bit $$$$ too much!!!  And Widden Valley was strongly recommended!!!  Any others?
 
IMO whoever suggested Dylan Thomas should be certified.  And to a lesser extent whoever suggested Widden Valley.  Not knocking the sires, just the matches.  Amadeus a possibly.
 
But if you're in Vic, want to use a Danehill-line stallion, and hope also to complement the distaff line suggest you first consider Dangerous or Al Samer amongst others.
 
 
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:40pm
Progold -  While I agree that my suggest of "a son Flying Spur" is a vague suggestion I suggested it because I understand that some people can afford to breed their mares to high priced stallions and don't have budgets but most of us do, some of us are also restricted to location and conformation therefore I suggested "a son flying spur" as a pointer in a direction he might like to look at next time within his budget. I could have suggested Magnus but what would the point of that be if he is beyond budget? and/or having never seen the mare, maybe an unsuitable conformation match 
In the end tauto would be the one to make his choice based on above restrictions I do not need to point that out to him and since he has already made his choice this year it seems, any further detailed suggestions can wait until next year    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2011 at 10:51am
danehill x stormcat was  unproven , well i think they are proven and very well proven , thats all, and statistic show this,  and yes on the computer

Your support in the theory was to use a Danehill/Storm Bird and a Danzig/Storm Cat cross.  The "evidence" that this is "proof" of a Danehill/Storm Cat nick seems to be statistics being used incorrectly.  Neither Danehill/Storm Bird or Danzig/Storm Cat has to be Danehill/Storm Bird.  We also are getting very confused as to what generations stallions are being found in.  SWANZ, after all is by Van Nistlerooy who is not Storm Cat in any case, nor is he Storm Bird.

 i actually think annenkov s dame line  is better than the danehill line

Well this is a turn up as it flies in the face of what you have suggested with Danehill/Storm Cat if female lines are now important.  There are lots of stallions from similar female lines, but as you have said from Lonhro and Niello, if a mating fails more often than it succeeds, it is poor.  I presume the computer doesn't tell us if Annenkov was a good or bad mating.  As far as Danehill's female family goes, I would think that it isn't too bad, and probably the pedigree of the stallion as a whole has a bit to say as to why he contributed to his progeny in the way that he did.

my suggest of "a son Flying Spur" is a vague suggestion

Indeed it was, but it also is based on an assumption that what works with Flying Spur will work with his sons.  If I had a Storm Cat mare and had sent her to Flying Spur five times without success (or apparently that could include 2 group 1 winners but it still is a fail), would it still be a good strategy to send her to a son of Flying Spur?

If we look at Van Nistelrooy rather than Storm Cat, we see that he carries Northern Dancer through a daughter as well as through Storm Cat.  I suspect that duplications of Northern Dancer through a daughter are a different matter in Australia in particular than through his sons.  In the case of Van Nistelrooy we also see that his damsire is Halo.   With SWANZ, we see that her damsire is Gulch who is not often found in Australia in this position, and the next two damsires are Blue Times, a grandson of Relic, and Sea Bird.  Would the presence of any of these "nick" with Danehill?  Does it matter, or are they simply irrelevant to a mating?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2011 at 9:14pm
i was keen on reward for Effort!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 9:23pm
understand that pro ,  
 
but the gts of it is, do you think storm cat x  danehill is a proven cross  yes or no ! i think hell yes,  as it was suggested that there was no proof  of this , well i think there is ,   do you ?
 
danehill is a icon of breeding not only in aust but worldwide , i would be simply crazy to question his ability as a stallion let alone query his dams  
 
 the point was  annekov while out of danehill, has a very respectful dam side as well  
 
and swanz  where  not considered greatly  commercial, but hers dam isnt that bad either , and considering she sneaked over the 100 k mark in stakes i certainly would suggest she would  be a mare to start your first breeding venture with ,  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 11:32pm
facts is better than no facts
 
Facts about Flying Spur:
1. From Storm Cat mares has produced 2 for 2 winners
2. From Gulch mares 2 for 2 winners
3. When Halo bloodline was crossed with Flying Spur it produced group 1 winner Sebring, with Halo and Danehill even more
 
also consider that mares by or with Storm Cat and Halo were not around as much when Flying Spur first went to stud as they are now so for all we know some or even all of Flying Spur's sons can be a good match for those bloodlines, nobody knows that absolutely for sure. 
With all pedigree analysing its not something that can be 100% correct, it is a guess and a gamble but most of us try to work with what info we have available to us and when looking at our options we are often faced with stallions that have no record of winners or foals on the ground but are more within our budget than something that is proven. Faced with that people might then have a look at the sire of that stallion to see what bloodlines have worked for him and then compare that with bloodlines found in their mare's. If some or all of those bloodlines have nicked well with that stallion then research might be extended to look at the dam's family but with stallions with opportunity generally producing more offspring than 5 generations of mares, that can be hard to research. It gets even harder when your mare is say mainly Australian bloodlines and your options, being from overseas, have little track record with them. 
Whatever you call that kind of analysing it is alot better than a stab in the dark even though most of us would agree that genetics can be just that - a stab in the dark with us hoping to find the light switch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 11:17am
But are incorrect facts better than no facts?

In all cases above, the "facts" are not actually facts at all.

Danzig/Storm Cat, Danehill/Storm Bird and Flying Spur/Storm Cat/Gulch/Halo are not sons of Danehill over sons of Storm Cat.  

And they can never account for the individual family.  Don't forget that there have been lots of cases where apparent "nicks" early in a career have been proven to perform badly overall at the end of careers.  Like saying that I have thrown three heads in a row so this coin will continue to show nothing but heads.  After ten throws, you may well have three heads and seven tails so the original "fact" is nothing but a fallacy.

As to whether Danehill over Storm Cat lines will work, of course it will in certain instances.  It will also fail in plenty of cases as well.   Remember that both Danehill and Tale Of The Cat stood at Coolmore, so we will undoubtedly see this combination appear through their local breeding.  In another thread about nicks, "proof" of their success was tempered by the fact that most of the successful nicks involving Danehill were all in the ownership of Coolmore.  Perhaps what was actually being measured was the success of Coolmore's breeding programme (and the old chestnut of best to the best or most expensive to most expensive) rather than what was claimed to be measuring.

Does it matter to anyone that the female family of Swanz has not produced a SW from ND line stallions from what I can see?  Surely we are missing the female family of the mare totally in this discussion.  Yet we repeatedly hear how important it is to duplicate females in pedigrees.  It seems like the rules get changed repeatedly to suit whatever outcome people are looking for.

And this, my friends, is detrimental to the breed, which is a major concern to me.  The mare deserves the best chance of success, and frankly, these strategies to me don't look to be giving her much chance at all.  When we can write off our failures as a genetic stab in the dark, it absolves the people from making suggestions from any responsibility.  

If I said to you to back a horse today at Geelong called Paradian because he is by a Danehill line stallion out of a Woodman line mare - just like Miss Finland - with every cent you own and he gets beaten, do I then just say, sorry I was just guessing.  Obviously it is your fault or someone else's for listening to me.  By the way, I have no idea how Paradian will go, I know nothing more than a couple of names in a pedigree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 11:32am
When Halo bloodline was crossed with Flying Spur it produced group 1 winner Sebring, 

Sebring is by More Than Ready, a son of Southern Halo who in turn was a son of Halo, out of a Flying Spur mare.

More Than Ready x Flying Spur mares have also produced another SW in Hot'n'Ready.

Interestingly Flying Spur has produced at least 2 runners from 2 mares who have Halo closer in their pedigree but has not produced a SW.  Does this prove that Flying Spur/Halo is no good and that Halo/Flying Spur is a "nick?"  Heaven forbid if we are actually measuring MTR/Flying Spur in the cases of the SW anyway.

If Flying Spur/Halo is a failure, then to suggest a son of Flying Spur over any mare carrying Halo is reinforcing a cross.  It is a problem with using statistics as "proof."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 11:47am
This earlier post appears to have been largely ignored in the scheme of things:
Originally posted by Run For Fun Run For Fun wrote:

... it's true... that Annenkov and some other Danehill-line stallions largely ignore the bottom half of Swanz's pedigree.  The converse of that is that it's not easy to find many Australian-based stallions that appear complementary to Swanz's dam Fikra.  Sons of Red Ransom eg Domesday... appear best.... 
It's hard to soar with eagles...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 12:43pm
Runfer, that is true in many ways, but it also depends in a way as to how you assess pedigrees.  You are looking for duplications within pedigrees by and large as a way of reinforcing characteristics.  While this is one strategy, perhaps there are others, especially if we consider that close inbreeding would not have seemed successful in the family. 

As you are no doubt aware, one of the things I have learned from dosages is that certain characteristics can be introduced to a pedigree through different stallions.  These do not necessarily have to be introduced via inbreeding.  Genetics, as we know, can throw interesting results. 

If I was to say that certain stallions appear to have an affinity with the family, how would you look at this?

Alydar, Real Quiet and Gilded Time are some stallions who have produced SW from the family.  Is there something similar that these stallions bring to a mating with this family?

I believe that the thoroughbred pedigree has the answers all there for us.  It is a matter of looking, and I don't necessarily believe that it is often easy.  If we rely on a computer program to tell us an answer as in the case of nicks, we have to be sure that we have asked the right questions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 7:46pm
i agree with that pro and for that  runfer ,   but the computer can make this task a hell of a lot easier, to what it once did , many many many hrs of work  of which can take minutes  now ,
there is no magic wands , as heavens forbid we would all have one , i would even buy 2  of them ,
 
  and as with all breeding let alone racing, there comes risk s and big ones ,   and as mentioned earlier  even the great lonhro and niello ,s mum couldn,t produce anymore champs with 5 additional matings to occy   so nothing is a given in this game,
i have even paid  in the past , breeding analysis from numerous sources  for the same mares and they have come back different , so  obviously there must be alot of room for interpretation  
 
but the original  statement of  danehill x storm cat , i believe is a good match , or more so,  has the potential to be    , and yes not all are good ,  , and yes  the match in question  are actually not danehill and storm cat, they are sons of ,   but you have to start somewhere , and with 2 good dams fikra and agathe being swanz and annenkovs dams  and 2 good  stallion s or for what its worth, 2nd generatioon  isnt a bad start,  for i am betting not a lot of buck s either 
 
most of fikra breeding was to northern dancer type   while not stkes winners , there seems to be some handy horses , and i would ask why have they dupilcated with all to n d ,
 
 








Bay mareFoaled in 2004













































SireStorm CatStorm BirdNorthern Dancer
VAN NISTELROOY (USA) TerlinguaSecretariat
2000HaloryHaloHail to Reason
Cold ReplyNorthern Dancer
DamGulchMr. ProspectorRaise a Native
FIKRA (USA) JameelaRambunctious
1993Bolt From the BlueBlue TimesOlden Times
BerkutSea Bird




VAN NISTELROOY (USA) (Chestnut 2000-Stud 2003). 3 wins at 2,
Curragh Futurity S., Gr.2. Sire of 336 rnrs, 202 wnrs, 21 SW, inc. Boundless
(New Zealand Oaks, Gr.1), Sparkling Oro, Set Play, Strike the Deal, Ruud Van
Slaats, More Bountiful, Onceuponatime, Raymi Coya, Elusive Lady, Nistle's
Crunch, Starry Pursuit, Brown Eyed Grace, Transformadora, Scarlet Vanhara, Bella
Renza, Princess Annaliese, Striker, Vandalo, Cubfanbudman, Maileys Cat, etc.



1st dam


FIKRA, by Gulch. Placed at 2 in GB. Dam of six foals, five
to race, four winners, inc:-


First Among Equals (g. by Tale of the Cat). 5 wins at
1000m, 1400m, HK$4,330,050, HKJC Lek Yuen H., River Verdon H., John Peel H.,
Sichuan H., Chevalier Construction H., 2d Hong Kong Racehorse Owners Association
Trophy H., Hong Kong Racehorse Owners Association Trophy, HKJC Lung Kong H.,
Peak H., Chevalier Construction H., 3d HKJC North Point H., Clear Water Bay H.,
Heilongjiang H., 3D Gold Cup H.


Blumarju (f. by Marju). 2 wins at 1550m, 1600m, AJC Clifton
Gardens H., 2d AJC Mick Young H., STC Cathay Pacific H.


Swanz (f. by Van Nistelrooy). 2 wins. See below.


Flo Jo (f. by Maroof). Winner at 2, 2d ARC Graeme Thomson
Antique & Estate Jewellery H., Waipuna Hotel H., 4th Whangarei RC Northland
Breeders' S., L.


Bongani (g. by Elusive City). Placed at 3 in 2008-09.



2nd dam


BOLT FROM THE BLUE, by Blue Times. 4 wins,
Calder La Prevoyante H., Gr.3, 3d Woodbine EP Taylor S., Gr.2. Dam
of 11 named foals, 9 to race, 6 winners, inc:-


Kafiyah (Shadeed). Winner at 2, Newbury Midsummer
S., 2d Newbury Rose Bowl S., L. Dam of-


RONALDO (Dehere). 2 wins at 1800m, 2000m in India,
Bombay CN Wadia Gold Cup, L, 2d Poona General Rajendrasinhji Million,
L, 3d Poona Derby, L.


Besadar. Unplaced. Dam of-


DARREL (Distant Relative). 17 wins-2 at 2-from 1400m
to 2800m, €313,305, 55,385,000L., Rome Premio Roma Vecchia, L, Handicap
d'Autunno, Premio Foro Italico, 2d Rome Premio Carlo d'Alessio, Gr.2.


Weepinbell (Alydeed). 9 wins-2 at 2-from 6f to 8½f,
2d Hastings Ascot Graduation S., L.


Gharah. 4 wins in U.S.A. Producer.


Ehtefaal. 4 wins from 1¾m to 2¾m in GB.


Blue Nose. 3 wins at 4f, 6f in Canada.


Jadwal. Winner at 2, 2d Sandown Woodchester Credit Lyonnais
Futurity S., 3d Newmarket NGK Spark Plugs H. Producer.


Bin Daahir. Placed at 3 in GB.


Fikra. Producer. See above.


Pixcel. Placed in U.S.A. Producer.


Candytuft. Unraced. Dam of-


MIDNIGHT LUTE (Real Quiet). Champion Sprinter in USA in
2007. 6 wins-1 at 2-at 6f, 7f, US$2,690,600, Saratoga Forego S.,
Gr.1, Breeders' Cup Sprint S., Gr.1-twice, Keeneland Perryville
S., Gr.3, Del Mar Allowance, 2d Aqueduct Cigar Mile H., Gr.1,
Santa Anita San Fernando S., Gr.2, 3d Santa Anita Malibu S., Gr.1,
4th Keeneland Commonwealth S., Gr.2, Santa Anita Strub S.,
Gr.2.


Captain Cherokee (Sir Cherokee). 2 wins at 1m, 8½f
in 2009, 3d Saratoga Amsterdam S., Gr.2, 4th Oaklawn Rebel S.,
Gr.2.


Tusculum Rd (Gilded Time). Winner at 2, 3d Delaware
White Clay Creek S., L.



3rd dam


BERKUT, by Sea Bird. 4 wins from 1500m to
2000m, Milan Premio Baggio, L, 4th Rome Premio Lydia Tesio, Gr.2.
Dam of 6 foals, 5 to race, 4 winners, inc:-


ALYDAR'S BEST (Alydar). 3 wins-1 at 2-at 1600m,
2000m, Longchamp Grand Criterium, Gr.1, Curragh Pretty Polly S.,
Gr.2, Leopardstown Silken Glider S., Gr.3, 2d Irish Oaks,
Gr.1, Santa Anita Yellow Ribbon S., Gr.1, 4th Yorkshire Oaks,
Gr.1.


BOLT FROM THE BLUE (Blue Times). 4 wins. See
above.


EXOTIC SOURCE (The Minstrel). Winner at 2000m, Milan
Premio Giovanni Falck, L. Dam of-


SARATOGA SOURCE (Saratoga Six). 6 wins-2 at 2-from
7f to 11f, Newbury Fillies Trial S., L, 2d Atlantic City Matchmaker S.,
Gr.2, Deutscher Buchmacher Stutenpreis von Neuss, Gr.3, Evry Prix
Chloe, Gr.3, 3d Rockingham Spicy Living H., Gr.3.


Shebar (Alysheba). 7 wins from 1900m to 2400m in
Ger, 2d Frankfurt Pokal, Gr.3.


Half a Dozen. Placed at 2 & 3 in GB. Dam of-


Sextet (Singspiel). 2 wins at 1¼m, 11f, 2d Woodbine
Durham Cup S., Gr.3, 3d Woodbine Halton S., L, Halton S.,
L-twice.


Index to Forli. Winner in France. Dam of-


Massive Powder. Unraced. Dam of-


Robinson (Petardia). 18 wins-2 at 2-from 1200m to
1750m to 2009 in Den., Norway and Sweden, 3d Klampenborg Store Sprint,
L.


Savannah Song. Placed at 3, 3d Curragh Waterford Lismore Fillies'
Maiden S. Dam of-


World Scale (Spinning World). 3 wins at 1800m,
2000m, 90,418,000¥, Tokyo Komakusa Sho, 2d Nakayama Kimpai, Jpn-3, 3d
Tokyo Epsom Cup, Jpn-3, Metropolitan S., L.


Shepton Mallet (Alzao). 3 wins-1 at 2-at 1800m,
2000m in GB and U.A.E, Doncaster Laurent-Perrier Rose Champagne S., 2d Newmarket
Superlative S., L, 3d Newmarket S., L, Abu Dhabi National Day Cup,
L.


Savant. Placed at 2 & 3 in Japan. Dam of-


Snark Tomokun (Agnes Tachyon). Winner at 2, 3d
Sonoda Hyogo Junior Grand Prix, Jpn-3.


Basileus (King Halo). 2 wins-1 at 2-at 1800m to
2010, 3d Tokyo Principal S., L.



Race Record: 24 Starts 2-5-1 A$70,063.


2 wins at 1200m, 1400m to 2008-09, MRC Valley of Georgia
H., 2d MRC Avon H., MVRC CFMEU & FFTS H., MRC Dantelah H., 3d MVRC Members
Equity Bank P.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 7:50pm
So Fikra is the key and look at Red Ransom Domesday sons!!!
 
Can you suggest any?

The posts are fantastic reading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by tauto tauto wrote:

So Fikra is the key and look at Red Ransom Domesday sons!!!  Can you suggest any?
The posts are fantastic reading.
 
Not really Tauto.  Just suggesting that Shanz's bottom half is as important as her the top, and that Red Ransom arguably meshes with her mother Fikra.  And so his sons might possibly represent reasonable matches for Swanz.
 
If it was simple we breeders would all be rolling in coin rather than horse cr*p.
 
 
 
 
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 8:31pm
True yes you are right there would be breeders everywhere!!!

It's the challenge though and using all that info on both sides and looking at whats worked.It can do your head in but certainly makes the time tick by thats for sure.

Its been sensational feedback l'm glad l was introduced to this site.I hardly watch tv these days!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 9:33pm































































































































ANNENKOV (IRE)
B. 2002
SW 5 wins
Danehill
B. 1986
GW 4 wins
f:2403 r:2009 w:1590
SW:347
Danzig
B. 1977
Wnr 3 wins
f:1066 r:777 w:641 SW:195
Northern DancerNearctic14
Natalma2
Pas de NomAdmiral's Voyage4
Petitioner7
Razyana
B. 1981
Pld
f:14 r:11 w:9 SW:5
His MajestyRibot4
Flower Bowl4
Spring AdieuBuckpasser1
Natalma2
Agathe
B. 1991
GW 2 wins
f:9 r:7 w:5 SW:3
Manila
B. 1983
GW 12 wins
f:527 r:374 w:236 SW:20
LyphardNorthern Dancer2
Goofed17
Dona YsidraLe Fabuleux13
Matriarch16
Albertine
B. 1981
SP 2 wins
f:17 r:15 w:10
SW:3
Irish RiverRiverman10
Irish Star1
AlmyreWild Risk3
Ad Gloriam8
SWANZ (NZ)
B. 2004
Wnr 3 wins
Van Nistelrooy
Ch. 2000
GW 2 wins
f:500 r:392 w:236
SW:22
Storm Cat
B. or Br. 1983
GW 4 wins
f:1401 r:1099 w:789
SW:174
Storm BirdNorthern Dancer2
South Ocean4
TerlinguaSecretariat2
Crimson Saint8
Halory
Ch. 1984
Pld
f:13 r:12 w:10 SW:5
HaloHail to Reason4
Cosmah2
Cold ReplyNorthern Dancer2
Respond4
Fikra
Br. 1993
Pld
f:6 r:5 w:4
Gulch
B. 1984
GW 13 wins
f:1051 r:920 w:650 SW:72
Mr. ProspectorRaise a Native8
Gold Digger13
JameelaRambunctious19
Asbury MaryA4
Bolt From the Blue
B. 1980
GW 4 wins
f:11 r:9
w:6
Blue TimesOlden Times20
Cocoblu1
BerkutSea Bird2
Feria3



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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
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looks ok to me ,  there you go tauto

ANNENKOV (IRE)


Bay horseFoaled in 2002













































SireDanzigNorthern DancerNearctic
DANEHILL (USA) Pas de NomAdmiral's Voyage
1986RazyanaHis MajestyRibot
Spring AdieuBuckpasser
DamManilaLyphardNorthern Dancer
AGATHE (USA) Dona YsidraLe Fabuleux
1991AlbertineIrish RiverRiverman
AlmyreWild Risk




DANEHILL (USA) (Bay 1986-Stud 1990). 4 wins-1 at 2, Haydock
Sprint Cup, Gr.1. Champion Aust. Sire-9 times. Sire of 2008 rnrs, 1580 wnrs, 347
SW, inc. Dylan Thomas (Ascot King George VI & Queen Elizabeth S., Gr.1),
Elvstroem, Duke of Marmalade, Dane Ripper, Flying Spur, Desert King, Zipping, Ha
Ha, Arena, Merlene, Nothin' Leica Dane, Danzero, North Light, Blackfriars,
Catbird, Rock of Gibraltar, Danewin, Westerner, Laisserfaire, Darci Brahma, etc.
His sire sons include Danehill Dancer (120 SW), Flying Spur (79 SW), Redoute's
Choice (70 SW), etc.



1st dam


AGATHE, by Manila. 2 wins-1 at 2-at 1600m,
2000m, 1,312,000fr., US$12,000, Deauville Prix de Psyche, Gr.3, 2d
Longchamp Poule d'Essai des Pouliches, Gr.1, Saint-Cloud Prix Edmond
Blanc, Gr.3, Prix Corrida, Gr.3, 3d Chantilly Prix de Diane,
Gr.1, Deauville Prix d'Astarte, Gr.2, Chantilly Prix du Chemin de
Fer du Nord, Gr.3, 4th Belmont Flower Bowl Invitational H., Gr.1.
Half-sister to ARCANGUES, ALAMO BAY, Azay le Rideau - City
Surfer
(H.K.), Afrique Bleu Azur<\scaps> (dam of CAPE
VERDI
, L'AFRICAIN BLEU), Asnieres<\scaps> (dam of
AUSTRALIE), Ange Bleu<\scaps> (dam of ANGARA,
ACTRICE, ARLESIENNE), Altana<\scaps> (dam of
GALATEE), Anna Karenina<\scaps> (dam of ANNA'S
ROCK
). Dam of nine foals, seven to race, five winners, inc:-


AQUARELLISTE (f. by Danehill). 7 wins from 2000m to
2400m, £37,500, 5,132,000fr., €221,415, HK$3,000,000, Chantilly Prix de Diane,
Gr.1, Longchamp Prix Vermeille, Gr.1, Prix Ganay, Gr.1,
Prix Foy, Gr.2, Saint-Cloud Prix Exbury, Gr.3, Chantilly Prix
Melisande, L, Longchamp Prix de la Cerisaie, 2d Prix de l'Arc de
Triomphe, Gr.1, Hong Kong Vase, Gr.1, 3d Grand Prix de
Saint-Cloud, Gr.1, 4th Ascot King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Diamond
S., Gr.1. Dam of-


Article Royal. 2 wins at 2600m, 2800m, Maisons-Laffitte
Prix Fourire, Prix Topyo, 2d Maisons-Laffitte Prix Caracalla.


Aquarelle Rare. Winner at 2900m in 2010, 2d Longchamp Prix
de la Grange Bateliere, 3d Saint-Cloud Prix Marechal Lyautey.


ARTISTE ROYAL (c. by Danehill). 7 wins at 2000m,
2400m, US$850,033, €116,200, 12,500,000¥, Hollywood Charles Whittingham Memorial
H., Gr.1, Oak Tree Clement L Hirsch Memorial Turf Championship S.,
Gr.1, Santa Anita San Marcos S., Gr.2, La Coupe de Longchamp,
Gr.3, Deauville Prix Ridgway, L, Longchamp Prix du Pre Catelan,
Chantilly Prix du Bois d'Enfer, 2d Santa Anita Frank E Kilroe Mile H.,
Gr.1, Del Mar H., Gr.2, Hollywood American H., Gr.2,
Inglewood H., Gr.3, Santa Anita Carleton F Burke H., Gr.3,
Longchamp Prix Lord Seymour, L, Prix de Lormoy, Prix Juigne, 3d Hollywood
Turf Cup S., Gr.1, Churchill Downs Turf Classic S., Gr.1,
Hollywood Charles Whittingham Memorial H., Gr.1, Santa Anita Clement L
Hirsch Memorial Turf Championship S., Gr.1, San Luis Rey H., Gr.2,
Arlington H., Gr.3, 4th Del Mar Eddie Read H., Gr.1, Del Mar H.,
Gr.2, Santa Anita Arcadia H., Gr.2, Longchamp Prix d'Hedouville,
Gr.3.


ANNENKOV (c. by Danehill). 5 wins. See below.


Arme Ancienne (f. by Sillery). Winner at 2000m,
Longchamp Prix de Chaillot, 3d Longchamp Prix Melisande, L. Dam of-


Charmeur. Winner at 2100m in 2010, Maisons-Laffitte Prix de
la Genevraye, 3d Saint-Cloud Prix de Tigery.


Arbalette. Winner at 2200m in France.


Aigle Royal (c. by Nashwan). 3 wins at 2500m in France and
S.Arabia, Maisons-Laffitte Prix Acis, 2d Saint-Cloud Prix Sea Bird, Prix Monade,
Prix Good Luck, 3d Saint-Cloud Prix Espace Vital.


Aurore (f. by Fasliyev). Placed at 2 & 3, 2d Saint-Cloud Prix
Fiammetta, 3d Chantilly Prix de Sylvie.



2nd dam


Albertine, by Irish River. 2 wins at 1600m,
1800m, Deauville Prix de Lieurey, 3d Longchamp Prix de l'Opera, Gr.2,
Prix de Liancourt, L, 4th Woodbine EP Taylor S., Gr.2.
Three-quarter-sister to Betafeu, half-sister to ASHMORE,
ACOMA (dam of AGENT BLEU), ART BLEU,
Abbey<\scaps> (dam of ABREGE, FLASH BALL),
Amenity<\scaps> (dam of I TRY, IDLE AFFAIR). Dam of
17 foals, 15 to race, 10 winners, inc:-


ARCANGUES (Sagace). Top of The 1993 European 4YO+
Classifications (1400m - 1800m) & (1900m - 2100m). 6 wins from 1700m
to 2000m, 1,640,000fr., US$1,681,550, Breeders' Cup Classic S., Gr.1,
Longchamp Prix d'Ispahan, Gr.1, Hollywood John Henry H., Gr.2,
Saint-Cloud Prix Eugene Adam, Gr.2, Longchamp Prix du Prince d'Orange,
Gr.3, 2d Longchamp Prix d'Ispahan, Gr.1, Deauville Prix Guillaume
d'Ornano, Gr.2, 3d Longchamp Prix Niel, Gr.2, Prix du Conseil de
Paris, Gr.2. Sire.


AGATHE (Manila). 2 wins. See above.


ALAMO BAY (Nureyev). 6 wins at 1400m, 1600m,
Longchamp Prix du Pin, L, Saint-Cloud Prix Phil Drake, L,
Maisons-Laffitte Prix Monade, Prix Volandry, 2d Longchamp Prix de la Porte
Maillot, Gr.3, Prix du Ranelagh, L, Prix du Pin, L.
Sire.


Azay le Rideau - City Surfer (H.K.) (Miswaki). 3
wins
-1 at 2-from 1600m to 1800m, Saint-Cloud Prix Mieuxce, HKJC San
Francisco H., Stanley H., 2d Deauville Prix de Saint-Patrick, L,
Saint-Cloud Prix Adaris, 4th Saint-Cloud Prix de Suresnes, L.


Andrei Roublev. 7 wins from 2350m to 3400m, €178,470,
Saint-Cloud Prix Finasseur, 2d Lyon-Villeurbanne Grand Prix de Villeurbanne, 3d
Saint-Cloud Prix de l'Hippodrome de Saumur, 4th Lyon-Parilly Prix du Grand Camp,
L.


Arkhangelsk. Winner at 2000m, Maisons-Laffitte Prix du
Mesnil.


Ascari. 6 wins from 5½f to 1m to 2010 in U.S.A. and Canada,
3d Deauville Prix du Deauville Yacht Club, Maisons-Laffitte Prix de la Ville du
Pecq.


Albert Hall. 4 wins from 3400m to 3900m to 2010, 2d
Longchamp Prix du Jardin d'Acclimatation.


Afrique Bleu Azur. 2 wins at 2300m in France. Dam of-


CAPE VERDI (Caerleon). 3 wins-2 at 2-at 6f, 1m,
£195,930, The One Thousand Guineas, Gr.1, York Lowther S., Gr.2,
Newmarket Sunley Builds 2YO S., 2d Royal Ascot Chesham S., L, 3d
Newmarket Falmouth S., Gr.2, 4th Newmarket Cheveley Park S., Gr.1.
Producer.


L'AFRICAIN BLEU (Saint Cyrien). 6 wins from 1600m to
2400m in France and U.S.A, Longchamp Prix de l'Avre, L, Grand Prix de
Lyon, L, 2d Deauville Prix de Reux, L, 4th Grand Prix de
Deauville, Gr.2, Longchamp Prix de la Porte de Madrid, L.
Sire.


Lovely Actress. Unraced. Dam of-


Taylor Dane. Winner at 1400m, QTC Young Carbinier H., 2d
MRC Bill Collins H. Dam of-


Exchanges (Domesday). 2 wins-1 at 2-at 1400m, 1600m,
A$114,718, to 2010-11, MRC Premier Signs H., 2d SAJC Oaklands P., L,
Tasmanian Oaks, L.


Asnieres. Winner at 1800m in France. Dam of-


AUSTRALIE (Sadler's Wells). 4 wins-1 at 2-from 1600m
to 2100m, £3,080, €97,000, Saint-Cloud Prix de Flore, Gr.3, Grand Prix du
Lion d'Angers, L, Longchamp Prix de la Madeleine, Saint-Cloud Prix
Mongolie, 3d Newmarket Godolphin S., L, Vichy Prix Madame Jean Couturie,
L, 4th Chantilly Prix Allez France, Gr.3.


Forgotten Voice (Danehill Dancer). 4 wins-1 at 2-at
7f, 1m, £106,430, 257,600Dhs, Royal Ascot Royal Hunt Cup, Kempton
Williamhill.com H., 2d Meydan Al Maktoum Challenge Round 1 S., Gr.3, 3d
Newmarket Joel S., Gr.3, 4th Goodwood Sussex S., Gr.1.


Keepers Hill (Danehill). 2 wins at 5f, 5½f,
Hollywood Allowance, 2d Curragh Marble Hill S., L, Orpen 2YO S.
Producer.


Norwegian Princess. Unraced. Dam of-


PRIVATE JET (Aussie Rules). 3 wins at 2, €79,500, in
2010, Criterium de Lyon, L, 2d Saint-Cloud Prix Thomas Bryon,
Gr.3, 3d Vichy Prix des Jouvenceaux et des Jouvencelles, L, 4th
Deauville Prix Francois Boutin, L.


Ange Bleu. Placed at 3 in France. Dam of-


ANGARA (Alzao). 6 wins from 1800m to 2400m,
US$1,064,213, €30,700, Saratoga Diana H., Gr.1, Arlington Beverly D S.,
Gr.1, Keeneland Bewitch S., Gr.3, Chantilly Prix de la Coharde,
Saint-Cloud Prix Hildegarde, Keeneland Allowance, 2d Belmont Sheepshead Bay H.,
Gr.2, New York H., Gr.2, Longchamp Prix de Cheffreville, 3d
Saratoga Diana S., Gr.1, Belmont Sheepshead Bay H., Gr.2, 4th
Belmont Flower Bowl S., Gr.1.


ACTRICE (Danehill). 4 wins from 1800m to 2100m,
£7,000, €138,400, Saint-Cloud Prix Corrida, Gr.2, Longchamp Prix de la
Pepiniere, L, Prix de Liancourt, L, 3d Saint-Cloud Prix de Flore,
Gr.3, Deauville Prix de Martinvast, 4th Royal Ascot Windsor Forest S.,
Gr.2, Longchamp Prix de Royallieu, Gr.2. Dam of-


Acteur Celebre (Galileo). 2 wins at 2000m to 2010,
Longchamp Prix Juigne, Prix des Centaures, 3d Chantilly Prix de Suresnes,
L.


ARLESIENNE (Alzao). 3 wins from 2300m to 2500m,
Maisons-Laffitte Prix des Tourelles, L, Saint-Cloud Prix de Bois Roussel,
2d Le Lion-d'Angers Prix Urban Sea, L, 3d Saint-Cloud Prix de Flore,
Gr.3. Dam of-


Aizavoski (Monsun). 2 wins at 2000m, 3000m,
€119,350, to 2010, Saint-Cloud Prix Querido, 3d Longchamp Prix Niel,
Gr.2, Prix Chaudenay, Gr.2.


Altamira (Peintre Celebre). 2 wins at 1800m, 2200m,

Chantilly Prix des Maroseaux, 2d Chantilly Prix de Boulogne, L, 3d
Deauville Prix de Dives.


Alcove. Raced once. Dam of-


Blue Indigo. Placed at 3 in France. Dam of-


GENRE (Orpen). 4 wins-3 at 2-from 1m to 9f,
Hollywood Cinema H., Gr.3, Real Quiet S., L, Doncaster Racing Post
Totetentofollow Nursery H., 2d Santa Anita La Puente S., L, 3d Newmarket
Zetland S., L, Santa Anita Pasadena S., L.


Altana. Raced twice. Dam of-


GALATEE (Galileo). 3 wins at 9½f, 1¼m, €131,424,
Naas Blue Wind S., Gr.3, Gowran Victor McCalmont Memorial S., L,
3d Leopardstown Trigo S., L.


Anna Karenina. Unraced. Dam of-


ANNA'S ROCK (Rock of Gibraltar). 2 wins-1 at 2-at
7f, 7½f, €85,689, Tipperary Fairy Bridge S., L, 2d Leopardstown
Stillorgan H., 3d Cork Navigation S., L, Leopardstown Unicredito Dublin
2YO S., 4th Tipperary Concorde S., Gr.3.


Sugar Mint (High Chaparral). 3 wins at 6½f, 1m,
Santa Anita Allowance, 2d Chester Cheshire Oaks, L, Doncaster Sykes Lawn
Turf 2YO Fillies' S., 4th Doncaster May Hill S., Gr.2, Sandown Distaff
S., L.



3rd dam


ALMYRE, by Wild Risk. 3 wins, L'Omnium de
Longchamp, L, 2d Deauville Prix de Pomone, Gr.3, 3d Handicap de Saint-Cloud, L.
Dam of 12 named foals, 11 to race, 9 winners, inc:-


ASHMORE (Luthier). 6 wins at 2400m, 2700m,
1,654,186fr., Saint-Cloud Prix Jean de Chaudenay, Gr.2, Grand Prix de
Deauville, Gr.2-twice, Deauville Prix de Reux, L, Prix de
Menneval, L, 2d Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud, Gr.1-twice, Epsom
Coronation Cup, Gr.1, 3d Longchamp Prix Royal Oak, Gr.1,
Saint-Cloud Prix Maurice de Nieuil, Gr.2, 4th Longchamp Prix Noailles,
Gr.2. Sire.


ART BLEU (Legend of France). 5 wins, La Coupe de
Longchamp, Gr.3, 2d Grand Prix d'Evry, Gr.2, Maisons-Laffitte Prix
Charles et Henry Rouher, L, 3d Longchamp Prix d'Harcourt, Gr.2.
Sire.


ACOMA (Rheffic). 2 wins at 2000m, 2400m, Evry Prix
de Minerve, Gr.3. Dam of-


AGENT BLEU (Vacarme). 3 wins from 1950m to 2100m,
Longchamp Prix Dollar, Gr.2, Prix de Suresnes, L, 2d Deauville
Prix Guillaume d'Ornano, Gr.2, 3d La Coupe de Maisons-Laffitte,
Gr.3. Sire.


Action de Graces. 6 wins from 2200m to 3000m in France. Dam
of-


Action Kara. 3 wins from 1500m to 2200m, Milan Premio
Misinto. Dam of-


ROCCO DA PAGANI (Masad). 2 wins at 2, Criterium di
Roma, L.


Acclaimed. Winner at 1¾m in GB. Dam of-


Kruguy (Try My Best). 2 wins at 2200m, 2d Longchamp
Prix de Royallieu, Gr.3, 3d Evry Prix Minerve, Gr.3. Dam of-


Kruguy Dancer. Winner in France. Dam of-


Galaxie des Sables (Marchand de Sable). 3 wins-2 at
2-from 1400m to 1600m, €83,870, Longchamp Prix de la Sorbonne, Marseille Borely
Prix Radio Maritima, 2d Nantes Prix des Sablonnets, L.


Money Can't Buy. Winner at 2400m in France. Dam of-


LEONARD QUERCUS (Hero's Honor). 3 wins in Spain,
Lasarte Copa de Oro de San Sebastian, L, 2d Madrid Gran Premio Memorial Duque de
Toledo, Gr.3, Lasarte Gran Premio de San Sebastian.


HATHOR ERIA (Legend of France). 2 wins-1 at 2-at
1600m, Chantilly Prix des Lilas, L, 2d Saint-Cloud Prix Amandine,
L, 3d Longchamp Prix de Bagatelle, L, Saint-Cloud Prix Eugene de
Savoie, L. Producer.


Ashmora. Placed at 3 in France. Dam of-


Nereo (Al Nasr). 8 wins-1 at 2-from 1600m to 2200m,
€23,441, 115,500,000L., 2d Florence Corsa dell'Arno, L, Milan Premio Via
Montenapoleone, 3d Milan Premio Mashaallah.


Tekameli. Unraced. Dam of-


Dream Machine (Bon Sang). 3 wins at 1700m, 1800m in
France and U.S.A, Hollywood Allowance, 2d Del Mar Oceanside S., L, 3d Del
Mar Relaunch S.


Albertine (Irish River). 2 wins. See above.


Abbey. Winner at 2100m, Maisons-Laffitte Prix de l'Arno.
Dam of-


FLASH BALL (Cricket Ball). 17 wins-3 at 2-from 1500m
to 4200m, 1,831,500fr., Deauville La Coupe Piaget, L, Auteuil Prix Pierre
de Lassus Hurdle, Prix Le Guales de Mezaubran Hurdle.


ABREGE (Shirley Heights). 5 wins from 2100m to
3000m, Chantilly Prix La Moskowa, L, Handicap de Saint-Cloud, L,
2d Longchamp Prix de Dangu, L, Prix Jouvence, L, Handicap de
Saint-Cloud, L.


Santa Musica. 2 wins at 1800m, 2200m, 2d Longchamp Prix de
Chaillot, 3d Maisons-Laffitte Prix de la Garonne. Dam of-


Rumboogie (Sharpo). Winner at 2, 3d Newbury Mill
Reef S., Gr.2.


Air Music (Fabulous Dancer). 5 wins in GB and U.S.A,
2d Doncaster Mile, L, 3d Ascot Royal Lodge S., Gr.2, Royal Ascot
King Edward VII S., Gr.2.


Arctic Life. 2 wins at 1650m, 1800m in France. Dam of-


ROSINA LAD (Faltaat). 13 wins from 1200m to 1600m,
NZ$264,097, A$111,500, MVRC Waterford Crystal Mile H., Gr.2, Manawatu
Challenge S., Gr.3, Waikato RC Ag & Turf Sprint H., L, Levin
S.H., L, CJC Millennium Hotel Sprint H., Wanganui JC 92.8 More FM H., 2d
WRC Thorndon Mile, Gr.1, Captain Cook S., Gr.1, 3d Wanganui JC
Mudgway Partsworld S., Gr.1, Waikato RC Ag & Turf Sprint H.,
L.


Manonamission (Kilimanjaro). 10 wins at 1600m,
2000m, NZ$248,350, to 2009-10, ARC Sir Slick H., 2d Wellington Cup, Gr.2,
Manawatu RC Awapuni Gold Cup, Gr.2.


Anna Edes. Placed at 3 in France. Dam of-


ABBATIALE (Kaldoun). 3 wins-1 at 2-at 2000m, 2100m,
1,022,000fr., Saint-Cloud Prix Penelope, Gr.3, Longchamp Prix Rose de
Mai, L, 2d Chantilly Prix de Diane, Gr.1, Saint-Cloud Prix Aricie,
Prix de la Haie Fleurie. Dam of-


BEWITCHED (Dansili). 6 wins-1 at 2-at 5f, 6f,
£61,078, €115,390, to 2010, Ascot Bengough S., Gr.3, Curragh Renaissance
S., Gr.3, Haydock Sandy Lane S., L, Naas Sweet Mimosa S.,
L, 3d Curragh Phoenix Sprint S., Gr.3, Ayr Land O'Burns S.,
L.


AUBERGADE (Kaldoun). 2 wins at 2100m, 2400m,
Longchamp Prix Rose de Mai, L, 2d Saint-Cloud Prix Penelope, Gr.3,
3d Deauville Prix de Pomone, Gr.2, Longchamp Prix Joubert, L. Dam
of-


Good Neighbor (Sunday Silence). 3 wins at 2000m,
2400m, 2d Hanshin Sumire S., 3d Hanshin Wakaba S., L, Chukyo Komaki
Tokubetsu.


Antarna. 3 wins at 1700m, 1800m in France. Producer.


Afrikaner. Winner at 2000m in France.


Abordage. Winner at 1¾m in GB. Dam of-


Miss Sensitive. Unplaced. Dam of-


Nagger (Topsider). 4 wins-1 at 2, 2d Miss Fairmount
S., L. Dam of-


Lenny the Lender (Lac Ouimet). 4 wins at 1m, 8½f,
US$373,384, 2d Woodbine Sky Classic H., Gr.2-twice, Marine S., L,
3d Woodbine Sky Classic H., Gr.2.


Artemis (Crusader Sword). 5 wins-2 at 2-at 6f, 6½f,
2d Stampede Park Mount Royal H., L.


Tiro Fijo (Matchlite). Placed at 2, 3d Great Lakes Patrick
Wood S., L.


Kelty Lynn. Unplaced. Dam of-


Moja Lynn (Lac Ouimet). 5 wins, 3d Penn National
Blue Mountain Futurity, L. Producer.


Amenity. Winner at 10¼f in GB. Dam of-


I TRY (Try My Best). 7 wins-2 at 2-from 1400m to
2000m, Gosforth Maine Chance H., L, Newmarket Nursery H., 2d Gosforth
Germiston November H., Gr.1, 3d Scottsville Basil Jenman H., L.
Sire.


IDLE AFFAIR (Try My Best). 3 wins at 1m, 9f in Ire.
and U.S.A, Leopardstown Brownstown Stud S., L. Dam of-


IDLE RICH (Sky Classic). 6 wins from 7f to 11f,
£28,841, US$287,875, Saratoga Glens Falls S., Gr.3, Colonial All Along
S., Gr.3, Leopardstown One Thousand Guineas Trial S., L, 2d Calder
La Prevoyante H., Gr.2, Saratoga Glens Falls H., Gr.3, 3d Curragh
Pretty Polly S., Gr.2. Producer.


Boarding School (Glenstal). 10 wins from 1m to 2½m,
Fairyhouse Huzzar H. Hurdle, 2d Curragh Ballysax S., L, 3d Cheltenham
Triumph Hurdle.


Betafeu (Irish River). Winner at 3200m, 3d Evry Prix
Isonomy, L.


Sentimental Gift. Unraced. Dam of-


ALEXINE (Runaway Groom). 8 wins at 1m, 8½f,
US$356,018 in U.S.A. and Arg, San Isidro G.P. Copa de Plata, Gr.1,
Clasico Juan Shaw, Gr.2, Bay Meadows Miss America H., L, Turf
Paradise Queen of the Green H., L, Santa Anita Santa Lucia H., L,
Del Mar Allowance, 2d Hollywood Hawthorne H., Gr.3, Santa Anita Santa
Lucia H., 3d Del Mar Ramona H., Gr.1, San Isidro Clasico Los Haras,
Gr.2, Hollywood Hawthorne H., Gr.3, Bay Meadows Yerba Buena H.,
Gr.3, Golden Gate Brown Bess H., Gr.3, 4th Santa Anita Santa
Margarita H., Gr.1. Producer.


Marina Lady. Unraced. Dam of-


Secrete Marina (Mujadil). 6 wins-2 at 2-at 1200m,
1400m, €92,455, 99,000,000L., Milan Premio Groppello, Premio Tingitana, 3d Rome
Premio Ubaldo Pandolfi, L. Dam of-


JOANNA (High Chaparral). Champion 2YO Filly in Italy in
2009. 6 wins-3 at 2-from 1000m to 1600m, €405,725, to 2010, Chantilly
Prix de Sandringham, Gr.2, Longchamp Prix de la Porte Maillot,
Gr.3, Deauville Prix du Calvados, Gr.3, Maisons-Laffitte Prix
Imprudence, Gr.3, Milan Premio Vittorio Crespi, L, Premio
Maroggia, 2d Deauville Prix Maurice de Gheest, Gr.1, Rome Premio
Alessandro Perrone, L, 3d Longchamp Poule d'Essai des Pouliches,
Gr.1, Prix Marcel Boussac, Gr.1.


Alliage Bleu. Placed in France.



Race Record: 40 Starts 5-5-4 €87,950, A$493,555.


5 wins from 1600m to 2400m, €87,950, A$493,555, VRC
Emirates Airline P., L, Mornington RC RM Ansett Classic, Maisons-Laffitte
Prix Petrarch, MVRC Taylors Lakes Family Hotel H., Maisons-Laffitte Prix Cadum,
2d WATC CB Cox S., Gr.2, La Coupe de Longchamp, Gr.3, Longchamp
Prix des Marronniers, Saint-Cloud Prix Aveu, Prix Samos, 3d WATC Railway S.,
Gr.1, MRC Coongy H., Gr.3, Deauville Prix Gontaut-Biron,
Gr.3, Chantilly Prix de Boulogne, L, 4th WATC Kingston Town
Classic, Gr.1.

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Joined: 14 Jul 2011
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2011 at 12:27am
Thats a very strong breeding line both sides with SW and plenty of foals by all mares with runners and winners.

All looks good to me thanks everyone for your input and lets hope for a healthy bay filly 1st up!!!
TAUTO/WINFREUX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2011 at 4:02pm
"one of the things I have learned from dosages is that certain characteristics can be introduced to a pedigree through different stallions."
 
got proof to go with that statement progold?
 
"But are incorrect facts better than no facts?"
 
last time I checked facts are something that actually exists, known to have happened and are facts until someone comes along and proves them wrong which you have not done so yet. can you be absolutely sure that any of FS's sons or any of the other suggestions that others have made wouldn't produce a good foal with Swanz? 
 
"If I said to you to back a horse today at Geelong called Paradian because he is by a Danehill line stallion out of a Woodman line mare - just like Miss Finland - with every cent you own and he gets beaten, do I then just say, sorry I was just guessing"
 
every breeder gambles on their theories or someone elses and that can be things like dosage, ratings, nicks, conformation expert etc none of which can be proven to be absolutely correct in their theories. And like alot of people on this site I try to help by making suggestions of possible options while at the same time understanding some of the contraints like budget and location they have because I'm in the same boat as them as a breed to race owner. 
ZAMINGA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2011 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by v and m v and m wrote:

"one of the things I have learned from dosages is that certain characteristics can be introduced to a pedigree through different stallions."
 
got proof to go with that statement progold?

Actually I have around 100 years of research to support that theory.
 
"But are incorrect facts better than no facts?"
 
last time I checked facts are something that actually exists, known to have happened and are facts until someone comes along and proves them wrong which you have not done so yet. can you be absolutely sure that any of FS's sons or any of the other suggestions that others have made wouldn't produce a good foal with Swanz? 

So, v and m, are you saying that Danzig/Storm Cat and Danehill/Storm Bird are the same as Danehill/Storm Cat crosses?  A fact can be true without being able to be applied to another environment.  I recall that you mentioned 

When Halo bloodline was crossed with Flying Spur it produced group 1 winner Sebring

This may be factual, but it also may be misleading.  Considering you were talking about FS as a sire rather than a broodmare sire, and that MTR is actually a grandson of Halo, and that FS over closer sons of Halo have failed on multiple occasions, perhaps this fact may be misrepresented.  Or at least it may be possible.

While genetics can always throw up a few outliers, yes, I am very confident that Annenkov/Swanz will result in an ordinary racing prospect.  I know that if I saw the resultant progeny in a yearling sale, I would immediately put a line through it and would not even consider inspecting it.  As to a son of FS, it would depend on which one.  Sweeping statements like sons of Danehill etc do very little to improve the breed.  Frighteningly, 30 % of the thoroughbred stallions registered in Australia this season are Danehill line stallions.  It makes sweeping statements pretty easy as 30% of SW should come from these lines.  Hard to argue statistics when this line is so dominant so surely we should be comparing with opportunity somewhere along the line.
 
"If I said to you to back a horse today at Geelong called Paradian because he is by a Danehill line stallion out of a Woodman line mare - just like Miss Finland - with every cent you own and he gets beaten, do I then just say, sorry I was just guessing"
 
every breeder gambles on their theories or someone elses and that can be things like dosage, ratings, nicks, conformation expert etc none of which can be proven to be absolutely correct in their theories. And like alot of people on this site I try to help by making suggestions of possible options while at the same time understanding some of the contraints like budget and location they have because I'm in the same boat as them as a breed to race owner. 

Did you back Paridian on the basis of it being bred on the same (?) cross as Miss Finland?  If you didn't then why aren't you prepared to back the same judgement that is being offered as a mating that will cost between $20-30k to get to the yearling stage?

If someone was to invest $20-30k on your suggestion, are you happy that you have invested 10 minutes on the recommendation?  Breed to race owners need all the help they can get, so are you sure that you have invested the time and effort to consider all of the aspects of a mating that need to be considered?  I always find it interesting that people can come up with recommendations for matings so readily.  It usually takes me at least 10 hours to get close to understanding what I am even looking for, before I even start the search for an appropriate mate.  No doubt I am slow.  Then again, maybe I am not sure that Danehill/Storm Bird is the same in every case so no doubt I am making life difficult for myself.

A statistic for people who obviously think that they are important.  Over the last decade, there are roughly 50% of all Group 1 winners in Australia who have no duplications in their pedigrees within five generations.  Danehill/Storm Bird or Danzig/Storm Cat fit mostly outside of these results.   What statistic is more important in breeding?
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2011 at 9:31pm
However if you want and more importantly need to breed winners, as distinct from Gp1 winners, Rosscoe's recent results (and with no due modesty mine over the last 40 years) suggest line-breeding with common ancestors within 3-6 generations can be hugely successful.  Particularly when for reasons of finance you need to use modest stallions over mares, which further franks the dividends.  
It's hard to soar with eagles...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 12:24am
how ever if we look at a generation back, lets say  northern dancer , would you also say  that is unproven ,or doomed for failure ,  my quick check and i mean quick  leads to a quite a few  of proven stallions are actually  double to him ,  have a look at say high chap  only for 1 instance ,  would you have put a line though him at the sales !!   every line to ND
most punters would back a horse on form , not breeding  as with matiings , 
 
here is an interesting read
 
The vast majority of High Chaparral’s stakes horses are inbred 3x4 to NORTHERN DANCER, and some have a third line to this great stallion in the fifth generation. He has sired the Gr.3 winner Above Average from a DANEHILL mare, and the Gr.1 Fillies’ Mile second Lady Darshaan is out of a daughter of GREEN DESERT. CAPE CROSS, a son of GREEN DESERT, is the broodmare sire of Gr.2 winner The Miniver Rose.
 
yet he himself is awash with ND but has proved himself with danehill   go figure
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 12:29am
pro quote "I am very confident that Annenkov/Swanz will result in an ordinary racing prospect."
Based on what  !!!!  opinion, fact,  your likes or dislikes   type  or breeding  
 
please please tell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 12:45am
Frighteningly, 30 % of the thoroughbred stallions registered in Australia this season are Danehill line stallions.
what would the reason for this be  !! i reckon because he was and is a champion stallion  and a champion broodmare sire , etc etc   and not just in aust , the same effect happened in US with MR P   and  northern dancer has done the same ,
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 1:06am
Can a case be made for purrealist / swanz





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 1:19am
have a look at say high chap  only for 1 instance ,  would you have put a line though him at the sales !!   every line to ND
yeh this is crap i pushed the wrong button  but ya get my drift  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 10:19am
Who said that Northern Dancer duplications were the reason that I am unimpressed by the mating?

However, now that you highlight it, it raises a very interesting question though with daughters of ND and inbreeding in Australia.

High Chaparral?  Not sure how to answer that apart from it being a good mating overall with only one line of Northern Dancer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 10:26am
Frighteningly, 30 % of the thoroughbred stallions registered in Australia this season are Danehill line stallions.
what would the reason for this be  !! i reckon because he was and is a champion stallion  and a champion broodmare sire , etc etc   and not just in aust , the same effect happened in US with MR P   and  northern dancer has done the same ,
 
What I find particularly of concern is comments that identify all sons and grandsons of Danehill as being the same.  Remember the Danehill/Storm Bird and Danzig/Storm Cat thing.  If we can't differentiate that, then how can we differentiate sons and grandsons of Danehill.  Effectively, 30% of the studbook, according to the computer programmes, are the same sire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 11:10am
For those interested in nicks of Danehill line/Storm Cat line, yesterdays winner, Foxwedge, as Pedigree Consultants point out is a result of this.  He is by Fastnet Rock out of a mare by Forest Wildcat.  Two important questions no doubt are how true to type are FR and FW of their ancestors, and perhaps the bigger one, is the close relationship of Storm Cat and FR's damsire, Royal Academy of more influence to the pedigree than the presence of these two stallions alone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 11:56am

 runfer i agree with your  ealier statement ,

and pro,  some of yours,

    once upon a time ,  it was said that this mating was to close to danehill  , etc etc ,  , well the only thing that they had in common was ND  so i would or could only assume that it was he that was to close , 

as i have tried to point out that some consultants believe that a danehill storm cat   danzid storm cat  etc etc  etc is a proven  mix  and  evn though poor tauto mare  is not SC but a Son of,   and annenkov the same ,  he unproven as a sire  and she unporven as a b mare ,  but both somewhat proven in there racing career , not champions buy any stretch , but certainly proven beyond doubt of many others  in the breeding barn ,
 
if i were at the sales and i seen a 1st foal out of a mare that one 100 k  i certainly would be having a look , with or without  a new unproven sire ,
 
and if it happen to win the coments,  i have no doubt, that it is bla bla bla  out of bla bla bla   storm cat  danehill cross,
and pro i do like most of  your comments 
 
but how do you subst  That you believe that this will not produce a racing propect ,  or do you have one of these bloody wands i was trying to buy
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