Join up at Bet Easy - Click here - Bet Easy is Thoroughbred Village’s premier betting partner - Join here now
Forum Home Forum Home > Horse Breeding - Public Forums > Stallions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Annenkov
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Click here for the Thoroughbred Village Home Page. For village news, follow @TBVillage on Twitter. For horseracing tips, follow @Villagebet on Twitter. To contact the Mayor by email: Click Here.

Annenkov

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
Message
tauto View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Location: EltHAM
Status: Offline
Points: 1104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Annenkov
    Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 8:16pm
Looks like l will be sending my Van Nistleroy mare to Annenkov  at Allandale stud as she's suited to Danehill types.

Any thoughts?
TAUTO/WINFREUX
Back to Top
Sponsored Links
Click here to view the promotions at Bet Easy.


Back to Top
v and m View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1099
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 1:51pm
danehill duplications too close
ZAMINGA
Back to Top
maxamill View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Location: vic
Status: Offline
Points: 1332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 3:32pm

sons of storm cat x danehill line been quite successful, i would of thought ????, throw in mr P and thats seems even better????  , VM i would of thought you are talking northern dancer , well he  is one of the most successful  inbreeding lines ever crossed  ,

Back to Top
Run For Fun View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14563
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 4:22pm
Foal would be in-bred 2m x 3m to Danehill.
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
Back to Top
Run For Fun View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14563
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Run For Fun Run For Fun wrote:

Foal would be in-bred 2m x 3m to Danehill.
 
That's only if the mare is by Van Nistleroy.
 
If by Van Nistelrooy it's a totally different story as suggested by Max.
 
So maybe a clarification and the name of the mare before offering further comment.
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
Back to Top
maxamill View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Location: vic
Status: Offline
Points: 1332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 7:21pm
i remember a an artical from a very renowned leading breeder,   the one thing better that danehill is more danehill with a little chilli , the chilli is mr prospector or  in later day rorys jester unbelievable strike rate
Back to Top
Run For Fun View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14563
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 7:44pm
Well the figures to date don't appear to support the comment (ie the one thing better than danehill is more danehill) by that un-named but renowned leading breeder.  Wink
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
Back to Top
tauto View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Location: EltHAM
Status: Offline
Points: 1104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 7:53pm
i was led to believe same Danehill/Danzig was a great fit for for Van Nistlerooy mares!!!

What else are you recommending?
What about Armadeus Wolf or Widden Valley Court Of Jewels?
TAUTO/WINFREUX
Back to Top
Run For Fun View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14563
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 8:02pm
Tauto, more the success of Danehill/Danzig with Storm Cat as distinct from VN - and more so in the NH.
And mate it's difficult to be more forthcoming if we don't know the bottom-half breeding of your mare, and where she's situated.
 
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
Back to Top
tauto View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Location: EltHAM
Status: Offline
Points: 1104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 8:10pm
Swanz is the mare 7yo just retired.
TAUTO/WINFREUX
Back to Top
maxamill View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Location: vic
Status: Offline
Points: 1332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 8:58pm

Moving on from the most popular choices, let’s examine the sires


 

that have the best records with Danehill mares. In that vein, we


 

have collated a table showing stallions who have 3 or more SW to


 

Danehill mares.


 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the table above shows a few


 

missed opportunities for those owners of Danehill mares (and


 

mares by sons of Danehill).


 

Quest For Fame and Zabeel top this list, but as two of the four


 

most popular choices for Danehill mares it makes some sense for


 

them to be here. Both are available to Australian breeders.


 

Giant’s Causeway is one who arguably should have served more


 

Danehill mares than he did. By Storm Cat from a Rahy mare, he


 

offered a reasonable outcross for Danehill (just the 4mx4m cross to


 

Northern Dancer); and standing at Coolmore Stud it seemed logical


 

that he would attract Danehill mares. With only 25 named foals


 

from Danehill mares, it would appear that those owners were focusing


 

their attentions elsewhere. A shame, as his figures with


 

Danehill, in hindsight, have been pretty exciting; especially for the


 

owners of Gr1 winners Just Momente (SAJC Robert Sangster S) and


 

in the northern hemisphere, Intense Focus (Dewhurst Stakes).


 

Giant’s Causeway is now solely based in the northern hemisphere


 

and offers a strong option for Danehill mares based there.

Back to Top
maxamill View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Location: vic
Status: Offline
Points: 1332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 9:09pm
rff the unnamed breeder ,   being john messara  arrowfield  stud 
Back to Top
maxamill View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Location: vic
Status: Offline
Points: 1332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 9:32pm

tauto here is some info for your danehill stallion to swanz                                                           

Danehill X Storm Bird cross has produced horses such as: Metal Bender (Rosehill Guineas),
The Duke (Hong Kong Mile) Downhill Racer (Magic Night Stakes) and Gonski.
The Danehill X
Storm Bird cross has an outstanding VGS of 2.03.


The Danzig X Storm Cat
cross which is proving to be very successful producing: MIC MAC (Reverse Cross-
G2 winning Statue of Liberty), Irish Lights, Hurried Choice (G2), Miss Beatrix
(G1 2yo), After Market (2 x USA G1 winner) and Mujahid (G1 winner and successful
sire). The Danzig X Storm Cat cross has an exceptional VGS of 5.22 in Australia.



 


 

Back to Top
tauto View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Location: EltHAM
Status: Offline
Points: 1104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 10:24pm
Thats pretty impressive thanks for that info.

Fingers crossed our offfspring measures upto some of those u mentioned!!!
TAUTO/WINFREUX
Back to Top
Run For Fun View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14563
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:48am
I see your mare Swanz hails from an American family containing Mr Prospector and Native Dancer in her pedigree, and that added to a desire to use a Danehill stallion means your choices are almost limitless in Oz.
 
So maybe just comes down to your personal preference.
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
Back to Top
v and m View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1099
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 1:18pm
I think Swanz would be better suited to a son of Flying Spur but anyway good luck hope you get a good one :D 
ZAMINGA
Back to Top
maxamill View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Location: vic
Status: Offline
Points: 1332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 4:37pm
v and m isn,t flying spur danehill  !!! and didnt you say danehill dup to close !!  
 
any way good luck with that mare tauto  i see the on the owners side, you have a few country hicks as well, watch they dont buckle you in there drinking games at melb cup time   
Back to Top
Progold View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 2905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 4:55pm
There are some eleven sons of Flying Spur at stud including Krupt whose damsire is by Storm Cat.  One may imagine that all eleven bring something different to the mix.

Danehill/Storm Bird and Danzig/Storm Cat?  How much relevance do these really have to the mare, Swanz and her family?

VGS?  We are obviously relying on a computer programme to plan our matings.  I find it hard to imagine that there was no difference in using a stallion like Danehill or stallions like Golden Snake, Monashee Mountain or Salt Lake City without any disrespect of those stallions.

Surely we realise by now that a statistical analysis cannot predict an outcome.  If the first two favourites lose, and statistics prove that one in three favourites win, it does not mean that the third favourite will win.  This is especially true if we are using statistics that are often meaningless in terms of sample size, or even measuring something different to what they are claiming.  Just because Danzig appears in the 4th generation of a pedigree does not mean that he has the same influence on every horse that carries him in that position.  It seems that his influence is apparently even consistent if we bring him forward, or push him back in a pedigree.   It is up to you if you think this sort of statement makes sense or not.

Midnight Lute by Real Quiet was the best runner in the family in recent times, even though there have been some decent ones.  He did not carry Storm Cat, Danzig or Danehill.  In fact, at a quick look at the family has me struggling to find any that carries either Danzig or Storm Cat and, considering it was based in the US where these lines are even more prevalent than Australia, that probably has to have some importance.  The premise that the mare is suited to Danehill would seem to fly in the face of what has actually worked in the family.  

Maybe we shouldn't argue with the computer though .......
Back to Top
maxamill View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Location: vic
Status: Offline
Points: 1332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 5:34pm

technology , well why not use it , what ever it may be ,  one can ask many opinions and would expect many different answers , depending on who it is asked of , I believe grandsires/dam have a lot to do with producing ,obvious better the dam and sire , but the next line being grand

 Pro do you believe storm cat and danehill cross well ,  regardless of this mare ,

and yes pro even you will be using computer  to compare 
Back to Top
Run For Fun View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14563
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 5:45pm
Well be it right or wrong, Tauto's expressed preference for a Danehill line stallion, and Annenkov in particular, was based on the relative success of the Danzig/Storm Cat cross. 
 
And our subsequent offerings generally kept that desire in mind, quite irrespective of the computer analyses offered by one of our members who lioke us all was endeavouring to assist. 
 
Mind you I'd hesitate to use Krupt, although he was only mentioned in passing.
 
However it's true, as suggested, that Annenkov and some other Danehill-line stallions largely ignore the bottom half of Swanz's pedigree.  The converse of that is that it's not easy to find many Australian-based stallions that appear complementary to Swanz's dam Fikra.  Sons of Red Ransom eg Domesday certainly appear best.
 
But it's ultimately down to Tauto, and am sure we all wish he or she every success.
 
 
 
 
 
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
Back to Top
Progold View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 2905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 5:46pm
I have no problem with using computers for analysis.  The trouble starts when we believe the information is more than it is.

Storm Cat and Danehill will succeed in certain cases, and most likely fail in lots of cases.  Not all sons of Storm Cat are the same as other sons of Storm Cat, and this works with Danehill.  Compatibility of pedigree is what is important.

As I said in this case, the family has never had a SW through either Danzig or Storm Cat lines.  Clearly it would make sense to look at this rather than saying that all Danehill line stallions will work with Storm Cat line mares.

A concept of Storm Cat/Danehill is relatively meaningless, as we do not even know what we are measuring.  Are you sure that it is Danehill/Storm Cat, or is it a question of balancing different lines of Northern Dancer?  The result will vary depending upon which descendants are present.  We know that Lonhro and Niello produced different results.  If we cannot accurately predict full siblings performance, then isn't it a bit of a stretch to categorically state that it is the presence of an ancestor in the 3rd generation that is all important?  Maybe we should just blame it on the Mosquito after all.
Back to Top
tauto View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Location: EltHAM
Status: Offline
Points: 1104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:04pm
Thanks for everyones input.Seems Danehill is the way to go.And drinking games at Melb Cup time will only add to the fun of the week!!!
Bring on the Spring Carnival!!!!
TAUTO/WINFREUX
Back to Top
v and m View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 21 May 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1099
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:07pm
max - I was refering to the Van Nistleroy (by Danehill) mare x Annenkov (by Danehill) cross having too close a duplication of Danehill, since it has now been confirmed that it is actually Van Nistelrooy (by Storm Cat) mare (Swanz) x Annenkov then there is no duplication of Danehill in the match.
 
Further more the reason why I think a son of Flying Spur would suit is because he comes from the same family as Van Nistelrooy, when flying spur has been crossed with others from his own family it has produced horses like Bliss Street and Krupt
 
ZAMINGA
Back to Top
Progold View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 2905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:08pm
For a start, is it a huge assumption to say that the Danehill/Storm Cat cross is a resounding success?  In this case we are looking at Danehill as a grandsire over Storm Cat as a grand damsire cross.  To compare it with anything else is to compare something very different.  Even if there were 10 cases of this Danzig/Storm Cat grandsire/granddamsire cross that were stakes winners, does this impact the likelihood of success of any future crosses on this basis?

If your mare went to a stallion and produced a SW, can you guarantee me that the next mating between those two would be a stakes winner?  Obviously not, but it seems to be implicit in the nicking theory that a past mating will influence a future one.

I certainly wish tauto all the best in his/her endeavour which is exactly why some balance should come into the argument.

Again, the family has never produced a stakes horse from either a Danzig or a Storm Cat line stallion.  Is it possible that the assumption of Danehill/Storm Cat might not be relevant in this case even if it was accepted?

Real Quiet, Gilded Time and Dehere have all been prominent in past stakeswinners in the family.  These influences may well be available in Australia.  I am not even suggesting that Danehill would not play a part in the pedigree, but as part of a wider pedigree.  Obviously with the prevalence of Danehill, it is hard to find non-Danehill lines.  He is not a weakness, but it isn't necessarily the key to a pedigree which is the original assumption which is basically that any son/grandson of Danehill is like any other.
Back to Top
Progold View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 2905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by v and m v and m wrote:

max - I was refering to the Van Nistleroy (by Danehill) mare x Annenkov (by Danehill) cross having too close a duplication of Danehill, since it has now been confirmed that it is actually Van Nistelrooy (by Storm Cat) mare (Swanz) x Annenkov then there is no duplication of Danehill in the match.
 
Further more the reason why I think a son of Flying Spur would suit is because he comes from the same family as Van Nistelrooy, when flying spur has been crossed with others from his own family it has produced horses like Bliss Street and Krupt
 
Don't you think that assumes that every son of Flying Spur is either identical, or similar to their sire.  Neither statement is necessarily true.
Back to Top
maxamill View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Location: vic
Status: Offline
Points: 1332
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxamill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:10pm
information is information,  it is then in the hands of the interperter , and as you would know i could give  information to 10 diferent people and get 10 differing answers , from 1 spectrum to another ,
 
I class danehill as a true champion stallion , and i would go as close to him as i posssible could, not flying spur  or sons of,   i also class  storm cat as a champion stallion , and would do the same   but given there both dead  i would try and go as close as possible , and yes no cross is  guarenteed  but the facts are danehill and storm cat have success   any way i look at it ,   call it northern dancer  or what ever u will
 
and you are right they may fail in a lot of cases , as everything , thats why we have statistics , 
  
As with Niello and Lonhro ,and the 5 other full siblings , well they didnt do anything near these 2     so would we say that mating is no good !!!!
Back to Top
tauto View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Location: EltHAM
Status: Offline
Points: 1104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:13pm
What other stallions would you propose in Victoria?

I was keen on Armadeus Wolf!! And Court Of Jewels but got one already and very happy any other suggestions.
A friend suggested Dylan Thomas but l thought a bit $$$$ too much!!!

And Widden Valley was stronly recommended!!!

Any others?
TAUTO/WINFREUX
Back to Top
Progold View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 2905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:16pm
Victoria?  But Annenkov stands in NSW?
Back to Top
Progold View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 2905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by maxamill maxamill wrote:

  
and you are right they may fail in a lot of cases , as everything , thats why we have statistics , 
  
As with Niello and Lonhro ,and the 5 other full siblings , well they didnt do anything near these 2     so would we say that mating is no good !!!!

And you don't see a problem with that?

Statistics .... well
Back to Top
tauto View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jul 2011
Location: EltHAM
Status: Offline
Points: 1104
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:51pm
NSW IS OK BUT WOULD PREFER Victoria.
TAUTO/WINFREUX
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.