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Aboriginal Man on "Australia Day"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:05am
So your point about whether or not they considered it “ownership” is a rather silly red herring.
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All countries have been "invaded" over the years. Only a matter of how far you want to go back. The Mongols made mince meat out of the Hungarians in the 1200's !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:13am
They did indeed

Say what you like about the Mongols, they were brutally honest (amongst other thing). Doubt they would’ve tried that one on with the Hungarians- “C’mon, Lazlo, it’s not like you really OWNED it”.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:16am
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

They did indeed

Say what you like about the Mongols, they were brutally honest (amongst other thing). Doubt they would’ve tried that one on with the Hungarians- “C’mon, Lazlo, it’s not like you really OWNED it”.
Not sure they were in the habit of asking questions at all LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waggamick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Redemption Redemption wrote:

Pretty arrogant to assume you know more about Aboriginals than other people Wagga.

Not arrogance..just my views..I'm sure I know a lot more than some and a lot less than others..

Aboriginals live with a core philosophy, "we dont own the land, the land owns us".

Exactly..which makes the whole concept of 'invasion' baseless.

Wright Brothers? Birds?
The first flying manmade wing, was indeed the Boomerang.
THEIR influence came from birds thousands of years ago.

And who did they tell that facilitated the invention of manned flight and the eventual establishment of QANTAS? No one. Isolation saw them trapped in time.

And you are simply WRONG about resuscitation.
Similar garbage that we are told Logie Baird invented the television. He didnt.

Looked but couldn't find any links on aborigines and resuscitation. Agree with you on the Logie Baird thing.

Australia was invaded, end of story.
As for dot paintings and tribal ceremonies you say we are "served up:", you are referring to Olympics, Football, etc, english royal visits.
WHO is serving it up.

The media in particular and events organisers.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:20am
Originally posted by waggamick waggamick wrote:

Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

So does that mean they had no objection to being turfed off it?

Of course not..anyone would regret being forcibly moved on. I'm sure the group/tribe before them felt the same. You can object to it all you like but it's history. It happened to my ancestors when the Romans turned up in Southern Britain.
 Applying blame(guilt) to generations removed from the original events, in my view, creates division and culpably shifts the focus from current causes of inequality.
Denying women and children safety and educational opportunity through isolation and remoteness in the name of clinging to an ancient Utopian ownership myth is cruel.
The cruelest aspect of all this is that the main drivers behind these myths speak for all aborigines without any authority.
 

exactly who was that and did the Aborigines expand to occupy most of the habitable land in Australia destroying anyone in their way , don't think soConfused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:31am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

All countries have been "invaded" over the years. Only a matter of how far you want to go back. The Mongols made mince meat out of the Hungarians in the 1200's !


And on that day the Hungarians celebrate their national day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waggamick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:40am
exactly who was that and did the Aborigines expand to occupy most of the habitable land in Australia destroying anyone in their way , don't think soConfused

Why is that so hard to believe?
'Destroying anyone' is a touch emotive. I would think that the previous group would either move on to other land or resist the newcomers.
Also pretty sure that other newcomers would've taken virgin turf if it was the easiest way to go.
The aboriginal industry feeds us the Utopian, peace loving, one-with-the-environment myth to create as big a contrast to modern living as they can. The whole idea is to create a guilt-shame nexus. 
Pre-settlement life was harsh...especially women(from a 21st century perspective)..and can and tribal skirmishes, battles and wars would've been common. Survival was a battle itself with the environment...not for all..but it would've been for inland nomadic groups.
By dwelling on a mythical Utopia activists use 'culture' as a cure all. 
This does a great disservice to young aboriginals. Rather than assimilate and make the most of the opportunities that modern civilisation can offer they are constantly bombarded from without that reversion to culture will justify their isolation and lack of opportunity.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:40am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

All countries have been "invaded" over the years. Only a matter of how far you want to go back. The Mongols made mince meat out of the Hungarians in the 1200's !


And on that day the Hungarians celebrate their national day.
They've been invaded so many times over the centuries they could celebrate it every day of the year. This whole argument is rubbish. Time to move on for christs sake - its never ending. Sorry Day, Reconciliation marches , moving Australia Day. Next will be the Australian Constitution & all the crap that's needed to change that. Surely support at the ground level should be the priority.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redemption Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:47am
Originally posted by waggamick waggamick wrote:

exactly who was that and did the Aborigines expand to occupy most of the habitable land in Australia destroying anyone in their way , don't think soConfused

Why is that so hard to believe?
'Destroying anyone' is a touch emotive. I would think that the previous group would either move on to other land or resist the newcomers.
Also pretty sure that other newcomers would've taken virgin turf if it was the easiest way to go.
The aboriginal industry feeds us the Utopian, peace loving, one-with-the-environment myth to create as big a contrast to modern living as they can. The whole idea is to create a guilt-shame nexus. 
Pre-settlement life was harsh...especially women(from a 21st century perspective)..and can and tribal skirmishes, battles and wars would've been common. Survival was a battle itself with the environment...not for all..but it would've been for inland nomadic groups.
By dwelling on a mythical Utopia activists use 'culture' as a cure all. 
This does a great disservice to young aboriginals. Rather than assimilate and make the most of the opportunities that modern civilisation can offer they are constantly bombarded from without that reversion to culture will justify their isolation and lack of opportunity.



LOL. Again. Uneducated garbage.
The Port Phillip Council, inner east Melbourne, was built on a natural spring, which was cherished by Aboriginals. The anglos ruined a natural spring, just to set up camp.
one example of thousands.

Extend that to Dandenong. same thing happened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:48am
Fact is - there is a percentage of Australians - both indigenous & non-indigenous - that will never be satisfied regardless of whats done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waggamick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:50am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

All countries have been "invaded" over the years. Only a matter of how far you want to go back. The Mongols made mince meat out of the Hungarians in the 1200's !

My point exactly...the Hungarians had a formal documented system of land OWNERSHIP.
They never claimed a custodial status or that the 'land owned them'.
Yes..The Mongols did INVADE Hungary.

Already in the medieval ages land ownership in Hungary differed from the customary arrangements in western Europe. Numerous elements of the customs that had prevailed at the time when the Hungarian state was established around ca. 1000 AD continue to shape public perceptions of this issue. Ever since the reign of the first Hungarian king, Saint Stephen, the right bestow land on those deemed loyal was always a royal privilege. It was illegal for anyone but the king to sell or divide land.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waggamick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:51am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Fact is - there is a percentage of Australians - both indigenous & non-indigenous - that will never be satisfied regardless of whats done.

And that's the truth!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waggamick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Redemption Redemption wrote:

LOL. Again. Uneducated garbage.
The Port Phillip Council, inner east Melbourne, was built on a natural spring, which was cherished by Aboriginals. The anglos ruined a natural spring, just to set up camp.
one example of thousands.

Extend that to Dandenong. same thing happened.

Why would 'the anglos' destroy a natural water source to set up a camp?
That's a weird thing to say!

1840​

5 years after its official beginning, Melbourne's population had already reached 7,000. Water pumps were installed on the northern bank of the Yarra River. Men with water carts sold water, door to door, for three shillings a barrel, equal to about 30 cents for 550 litres.​

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Let me ask this question - & i seriously dont know the answer - & hoping others can. From a big picture perspective - are indigenous communities any better off today than they were 20 years ago ? Health, crime, social , financial & so on ? Just how would changing Australia Day, or changing the constitution improve things at that level ? I mean its not as if a lot of money hasn't been spent over the years is it ? Maybe things are a lot better - happy to hear from those that might know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 11:03am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Let me ask this question - & i seriously dont know the answer - & hoping others can. From a big picture perspective - are indigenous communities any better off today than they were 20 years ago ? Health, crime, social , financial & so on ? Just how would changing Australia Day, or changing the constitution improve things at that level ? I mean its not as if a lot of money hasn't been spent over the years is it ? Maybe things are a lot better - happy to hear from those that might know.


It's the wrong day historically as Redemption showed in post 1 and changing it would harm nobody.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waggamick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 11:04am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

All countries have been "invaded" over the years. Only a matter of how far you want to go back. The Mongols made mince meat out of the Hungarians in the 1200's !


And on that day the Hungarians celebrate their national day.
They've been invaded so many times over the centuries they could celebrate it every day of the year. This whole argument is rubbish. Time to move on for christs sake - its never ending. Sorry Day, Reconciliation marches , moving Australia Day. Next will be the Australian Constitution & all the crap that's needed to change that. Surely support at the ground level should be the priority.

Spot on!
An objective independent audit of current and future practical aboriginal needs is critical.
Everything should be triaged through the view of a better future for aboriginal children and women.


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Originally posted by waggamick waggamick wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

All countries have been "invaded" over the years. Only a matter of how far you want to go back. The Mongols made mince meat out of the Hungarians in the 1200's !


My point exactly...the Hungarians had a formal documented system of land OWNERSHIP.
They never claimed a custodial status or that the 'land owned them'.
Yes..The Mongols did INVADE Hungary.

Already in the medieval ages land ownership in Hungary differed from the customary
arrangements in western Europe. Numerous elements of the customs that had prevailed at the
time when the Hungarian state was established around ca. 1000 AD continue to shape public
perceptions of this issue. Ever since the reign of the first Hungarian king, Saint Stephen, the
right bestow land on those deemed loyal was always a royal privilege. It was illegal for anyone
but the king to sell or divide land.


If you’re booted off your land it hardly matters what your laws and customs regarding ownership are- you’re still being booted off

I’ve no doubt some aboriginals at the time considered it for all intents and purposes an invasion. I have no doubt some aboriginals today still do. This seems an entirely reasonable perspective to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waggamick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 11:10am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Let me ask this question - & i seriously dont know the answer - & hoping others can. From a big picture perspective - are indigenous communities any better off today than they were 20 years ago ? Health, crime, social , financial & so on ? Just how would changing Australia Day, or changing the constitution improve things at that level ? I mean its not as if a lot of money hasn't been spent over the years is it ? Maybe things are a lot better - happy to hear from those that might know.

Change the day...change the constitution.....
The former is divisive and the latter will be tokenistic at best.
That's what frustrates me is that these are activist led smokescreens  muddy up the waters when something practical, devoid of 'cultural' hindrances, needs to be done to address the many worsening inequalities.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Let me ask this question - & i seriously dont know the answer - & hoping others can. From a big picture perspective - are indigenous communities any better off today than they were 20 years ago ? Health, crime, social , financial & so on ? Just how would changing Australia Day, or changing the constitution improve things at that level ? I mean its not as if a lot of money hasn't been spent over the years is it ? Maybe things are a lot better - happy to hear from those that might know.


It's the wrong day historically as Redemption showed in post 1 and changing it would harm nobody.
  I cannot even remember it as an issue at all until a few years back. And that's my point - its a moving target. Stolen generation, Sorry announcement, Reconciliation marches. Will it stop at changing Australia Day ? - or are we then onto the Constitution & the fall out from what that brings. And i wouldn't mind so much if it was producing better outcomes at the grass roots. Maybe it has - as i asked above ? I also dont agree re "it would harm nobody". Its a non-issue that only achieves to drive the wedge deeper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 11:17am
A few facts about pre contact Aboriginal society might be helpful . The most up to date estimates of the population when the First Fleet arrived is around 350,000 people. Mostly concentrated in the top end . Arthur Phillip estimated the population from Broken Bay to the southern shore of Botany Bay was between between 1,500-2,000 people. They lived in extended family groups of around 50-60 , each group distinct in their customs to the others. The young men were warriors and fighting between the various groups was common. Each group was very aware that their hunting grounds were only theirs as long as their warriors could hold them. There was no political structure at all, no leaders . Problems between the settlers and the Aboriginals were always cultural clashes, especially the Aboriginal custom of revenge killings. The taking of deadly revenge for a perceived insult was something the British had trouble coming to terms with. I could go on about the Noble Savage Syndrome a well recognised syndrome amongst privileged white people, most prevalent in Victorian England but seems to have returned in our inner cities recently.
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Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

 

If you’re booted off your land it hardly matters what your laws and customs regarding ownership are- you’re still being booted off

I’ve no doubt some aboriginals at the time considered it for all intents and purposes an invasion. I have no doubt some aboriginals today still do. This seems an entirely reasonable perspective to me.

I agree with you on all counts BUT to hang your hat on the wrongs of an historical invasion is divisive and counter productive at a time when urgent objective practical action is required.
We see funds spent on maintaining isolated settlements..with their attendant lack of medical facilities and educational/job opportunities..and more funds spent on teaching redundant aboriginal languages...to students in upper primary with a Kindergaten level reading age.
Every time a government tries to address these issues (see WA govt trying to centralise remote communities) and the self centred aboriginal industry shouts you down as anti-culture racists.
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Only watched a doco last night on Papua New Guinea Baguette. They have horrific issues with "revenge" killings/assault in their communities. More than 50% of all Emergency Procedures in hospitals up there involve gun/machette crimes on the back of this reason. The use of these bush machettes result in loss of limbs & major damage & is unbelievably brutal..
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Sport continues to be the most effective way of breaking down barriers. All for pouring money into supporting that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waggamick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 11:40am
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Sport continues to be the most effective way of breaking down barriers. All for pouring money into supporting that.

A much better spend than some of the pie in the sky crap they've funded over recent years.
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Wagga, mate, would you like me to point out all the very simplistic "tribal" doings of anglo saxons?

Lets start with "federation square" in melbourne.
Looks like a bloody simplistic building to me. If a bomb hit it, it would slant in another direction, and still look the same.

RSL's are pokies venues.
Went to "war", for pokies??

Should we list the thousands upon thousands of white anglo saxon pedos, that have filled up churches, and tv screens, eg Robert Hughes of Hey Dad?  (this list is endless).

We booted the dude that built the Sydney Opera House, back to his own country, before he even got to see it being finished, and we have since held it as a national treasure.

Dot Paintings?
Have you seen the work by Aboriginal artist, Albert Namatjira??
Nah mate, aboriginals just paint "dots"

Qantas wouldnt even exist, without the fact Aboriginals are the first people to have invented the Flying Wing. Its called a Boomerang.

or how about the millions upon millions of people that have been revived through Resuscitation?
Aboriginals invented that too.

Your post was 100% typical racist garbage and completed UNEDUCATED tripe.



[/QUOTE]

Wagga puts his case calmly and logically presenting facts to back his argument. Gotta respect him for that even if you disagree with his conclusion.

Your post on the other hand is the complete opposite, not one relevant fact, simply a listing of some of the shortcomings of the evil English in the modern world, zero to do with the discussion Confused

Nobody is interested in your sick, racist, obsessional hatred of the English Ouch


Totally ridiculous postEmbarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redemption Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 12:24pm
Wagga, the anglos built on top of the natural spring, to "remove" aboriginals from the area.
these tactic were widely used, even in the Dandenong region.

they were pushed out by a bunch of pr$cks.
you can dress that up all you like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redemption Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by waggamick waggamick wrote:

Originally posted by Redemption Redemption wrote:

LOL. Again. Uneducated garbage.
The Port Phillip Council, inner east Melbourne, was built on a natural spring, which was cherished by Aboriginals. The anglos ruined a natural spring, just to set up camp.
one example of thousands.

Extend that to Dandenong. same thing happened.

Why would 'the anglos' destroy a natural water source to set up a camp?
That's a weird thing to say!

1840​

5 years after its official beginning, Melbourne's population had already reached 7,000. Water pumps were installed on the northern bank of the Yarra River. Men with water carts sold water, door to door, for three shillings a barrel, equal to about 30 cents for 550 litres.​


How sophisticated of them.
Pity back in London, the public were still sh#tting in the alleyways, and did for another 150 years later. (and probably still do)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 12:38pm
Hate to disallusion you, Redemption,  but they still do that in any inner city anywhere in the world .
animals before people.
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