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ABC shafts racing

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 11:30am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

My objection to this ABC report is that it singled out race wagering for attention, and labelled it more harmful than other forms of gambling. The reality is that race wagering is a small percentage of the overall gambling spend. People lose a lot less money there, than on poker machines. Yet it was the only form of gambling spoken of, and clearly the timing of this release is intended to co-incide with the period of peak public interest in racing.

More "editorialising" Max or does your version of the article contain additional info which I can't see?

Like many ABC knifers your knowledge of the ABC's enormous range of activities suggests you live a very "selective" existence. 

The article you've got your knickers in a twist over was focused on horse and dog gambling for obvious reasons. 

Here's an ABC article on gambling in general, done not two weeks ago - knock yourself out. You'll no doubt be distraught that it doesn't specifically reference the dangers of horse/dog wagering but like most articles it follows one of the simple rules of journalism. 

What is it with the ABC? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 11:48am
Max,

I understand your concern regarding the spin put on the report.  It was focused on race betting as one aspect of several in the problem gaming equation (the others being lotto, scratchies, sports betting and pokies - and there have been reports about each in the past).  

The ABC's social affairs reporter Norman Hermant spun it some more with the headline "Spring Racing Carnival glamour hides dark side of problem gambling" when Spring Carnival Glamour has nought to do with the research and Hermant's report is written in that opined millennial style that does journalism a disservice.  

There are aspects of the ABC report that are simply poor journalism.  Hermant states,

"Forty-one per cent of race bettors experienced problems — with half of them spending anywhere from $4,300 to more than $8,000 a year."   

That implies that the race bettors spent from $4300 to $8000 a year on race betting when the research makes it clear that spend was the problem gamblers total spend on all forms of gambling with the actual average spend on racing being between $2042 and $3815.  

In fact what the research shows is that those who identified as problem gamblers the proportion of their gambling spend on racing is less than for race bettors who identified as not having a problem.  The problem gamblers spend on racing was 41% of his total spend, while the non problem gambling regaular race bettor spent 57% of his gambling dollar on racing.  In other words the problem gambling race bettors problem is much bigger than race betting.

Hermant either misunderstood the research or has deliberately constructed a misleading assertion before embarking on a range of anecdotal profiles of problem gambling duffers. 

In short the ABC report is not very good journalism - but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.  

All properly conducted research on gambling should be welcomed - and this was a survey of 14,000 households so it well and truly proper.  

As for the tendency of self reporting to understate the problem, that is something social researchers take as a given.  If self reporting identifies a problem then we certainly have a problem !

Note :  Hermant's piece had it's day on the front page of the ABC site and has now fallen pages back.  The article on Winx and her strapper is still there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mc41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 12:59pm
Its Melbourne cup time biggest gambling day,surely there not going to run the story on a cold winters sat 🤔
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

My objection to this ABC report is that it singled out race wagering for attention, and labelled it more harmful than other forms of gambling. The reality is that race wagering is a small percentage of the overall gambling spend. People lose a lot less money there, than on poker machines. Yet it was the only form of gambling spoken of, and clearly the timing of this release is intended to co-incide with the period of peak public interest in racing.


More "editorialising" Max or does your version of the article contain additional info which I can't see?

Like many ABC knifers your knowledge of the ABC's enormous range of activities suggests you live a very "selective" existence. 

The article you've got your knickers in a twist over was focused on horse and dog gambling for obvious reasons. 

Here's an ABC article on gambling in general, done not two weeks ago - knock yourself out. You'll no doubt be distraught that it doesn't specifically reference the dangers of horse/dog wagering but like most articles it follows one of the simple rules of journalism. 

What is it with the ABC? 

No, the ABC news segment I saw, identified race wagering as being peculiarly problematical, and more likely to lead to distress. That is the gist of my complaint, I don't buy it. I am not bent on bashing the ABC, but one can see it is slipping in its standards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 1:35pm
Tell me something used in excess that isn't harmful in one way or another.?
All those things that destroy people , Drinking , smoking , Prescribed Medications, Dairy products, Sugar , Exhaust fumes, Fatty Meats , overweight, Photo Finishes etc.
Sadly we have a percentage who do become hooked to a point ,where their health , the Family and financial position suffers big time.
Does that justify the damaging publicity for Industry especially , That is a beneficial part of our Society.
Most victims have a self destruct / addictive personality and soon find another medium to replace any avenues they are deprived of.
My 87 Y/o sister puts $50 into the pokies every Saturday. Her Lunch at the RSL is her pleasant outing. Would cost her more than that to go to a movie.    ( The occasional winning week is a real talking point.)    
   Stuff the ABC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Tontonan Tontonan wrote:

Max,

I understand your concern regarding the spin put on the report.  It was focused on race betting as one aspect of several in the problem gaming equation (the others being lotto, scratchies, sports betting and pokies - and there have been reports about each in the past).  

The ABC's social affairs reporter Norman Hermant spun it some more with the headline "Spring Racing Carnival glamour hides dark side of problem gambling" when Spring Carnival Glamour has nought to do with the research and Hermant's report is written in that opined millennial style that does journalism a disservice.  

There are aspects of the ABC report that are simply poor journalism.  Hermant states,

"Forty-one per cent of race bettors experienced problems — with half of them spending anywhere from $4,300 to more than $8,000 a year."   

That implies that the race bettors spent from $4300 to $8000 a year on race betting when the research makes it clear that spend was the problem gamblers total spend on all forms of gambling with the actual average spend on racing being between $2042 and $3815.  

In fact what the research shows is that those who identified as problem gamblers the proportion of their gambling spend on racing is less than for race bettors who identified as not having a problem.  The problem gamblers spend on racing was 41% of his total spend, while the non problem gambling regaular race bettor spent 57% of his gambling dollar on racing.  In other words the problem gambling race bettors problem is much bigger than race betting.

Hermant either misunderstood the research or has deliberately constructed a misleading assertion before embarking on a range of anecdotal profiles of problem gambling duffers. 

In short the ABC report is not very good journalism - but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.  

All properly conducted research on gambling should be welcomed - and this was a survey of 14,000 households so it well and truly proper.  

As for the tendency of self reporting to understate the problem, that is something social researchers take as a given.  If self reporting identifies a problem then we certainly have a problem !

Note :  Hermant's piece had it's day on the front page of the ABC site and has now fallen pages back.  The article on Winx and her strapper is still there.

Good summation, it was not the report I was complaining about, just the way the ABC report managed to spin it. Making out that race wagering losses are somehow less acceptable than losses on other gambling, is tripe. It is all gambling, and you will be relieved of your money by reckless gambling, very quickly, on virtually any form of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

[QUOTE=max manewer]My objection to this ABC report is that it singled out race wagering for attention, and labelled it more harmful than other forms of gambling. The reality is that race wagering is a small percentage of the overall gambling spend. People lose a lot less money there, than on poker machines. Yet it was the only form of gambling spoken of, and clearly the timing of this release is intended to co-incide with the period of peak public interest in racing.

Interesting that the (unsubstantiated) inference you drew is, according to the report, true Max (see below). I agree with Tontonan that the article is actually a pretty rough representation of the report. For example by not clarifying he inadvertently invites readers to speculate that the "spend" equates to money lost. 

By comparison poker machines have almost zero social value compared to racing. Employment, income generation, entertainment, flow on effects into other industries etc, all present in racing, are negligible in the case of poker machines.

Our analysis of the 2015 HILDA survey data shows that nearly one million Australian adults gambled regularly on the races. These people were twice as likely to experience gambling-related problems as the average Australian regular gambler. It shows that those who experienced greater problems spent substantially more than those without problems, and that they were more likely to live in households that experienced financial problems.


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Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:


Good summation, it was not the report I was complaining about, just the way the ABC report managed to spin it. Making out that race wagering losses are somehow less acceptable than losses on other gambling, is tripe. It is all gambling, and you will be relieved of your money by reckless gambling, very quickly, on virtually any form of it.

Seems like you still haven't read the report.

This suggests your tripe comment is wrong:

Gambling problems

In 2015, 41% of all regular race bettors—403,000 adults—experienced one or more gambling-related problems.5 That is, their gambling behaviour caused or put them at risk of problems.5 This was more than double the rate among regular gamblers nationally. This further means that one third of all regular gamblers who experienced problems in Australia regularly participated in race betting.

Around 22% of regular race bettors—214,000 adults—had moderate to severe gambling problems (Table 1).

Table 1: Gambling problem severity
Gambling problem severityRegular gamblersRegular race bettors
No problems83.3%58.6%
Low-level problems8.7%19.4%
Moderate problems5.9%16.8%
Severe problems ("problem gamblers")2.1%5.1%
Any problems16.7%41.4%

Race bettors who experienced gambling-related problems spent much more on gambling than those who did not experience problems (Figure 2). Those with severe problems spent up to four times as much on racing over the year ($3,815 vs $887), and five times as much on gambling overall ($8,141 vs $1,619). 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 2:48pm
"Regular gamblers" is a bit vague, those figures could be padded out by people who buy a lotto quick-pick once a week. Naturally they don't lose much, individually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 3:35pm
Fact is the ABC's representation of the survey appears to be borne out by the data Max.

The results of this particular survey show that regular punters are about 2.5 times more likely to have low, moderate or severe gambling problems.  I don't know what that suggests to you but the numbers in the table unequivocally suggest to me that regular race gambling is comparatively - to use your words - "peculiarly problematical, and more likely to lead to distress". 

The ABC accepts your apology. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 3:38pm
The figures don't convince me, blinder. I find it very hard to credit that pokies have created less gambling problems than race wagering. If you are convinced, then explain how pokie losses are vastly more than race wagering losses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 4:55pm
Given the huge losses on pokies (and my personal knowledge of people affected) I'm inclined to think they are a bigger risk but I'm no more an expert on problem gambling than you are Max. Do some research and get back to us with the answer. This might help: http://theconversation.com/three-charts-on-australias-addiction-to-poker-machines-78353 

What I've pointed out is that your criticism of the ABC's portrayal of THIS particular report - the subject of your topic - is itself TRIPE. They reported the facts pretty much accurately according to your posts. 

The data and conclusions may or may not be an accurate reflection of reality across the nation but I have no reason to believe they don't reflect the survey responses, which is after all what the authors (and the ABC) were reporting. 

As ever, if you want to know the big picture it pays to look at a whole suite of data and assessment, not just one self-reporting survey. This is why epidemiological studies are so critical in medicine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 5:07pm
That study has a flaw that is readily obvious, "regular gamblers" is not explained, that I saw. Anyone buying a scratchie when they buy a week-end paper, would qualify as a regular gambler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 5:49pm
I agree that anecdotal evidence is not much chop, and since it is very difficult to accurately gauge what the spread of losses is across a population of gamblers, I take more notice of the total losses, which is fairly easily calculated, and race wagering is much less than pokies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 5:57pm
Have you read the report yet? I think not. Irrespective of that your thread has imploded, and rightly so.

Any reasons you can think of why total losses might not be the best indicator of the extent of problem gambling?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 5:59pm
What is worse, 1000 people losing $5000 each, per annum, or 5000 people losing $2000 each per annum ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 6:02pm
My initial thought is it probably depends on the demography Confused
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Have you read the report yet? I think not. Irrespective of that your thread has imploded, and rightly so.

Any reasons you can think of why total losses might not be the best indicator of the extent of problem gambling?

I read the report, and I see no explanation of what a "regular gambler" is. I assume they omitted BINGO !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

My initial thought is it probably depends on the demography Confused

It is a complicated matter, the true picture is hard to clarify, in terms of the social effects of various kinds of gambling. But people with little self-discipline or control, are never far from the devil, whether through gambling or something else. Jails are full of people with poor impulse control. With the considerable expansion of state-sanctioned gambling in recent decades, it is safe to say society deems lack of impulse control that leads to hardship from gambling, not worthy of intervention. I can't really disagree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 7:04pm
The old ABC trotted this very same story out of its stall again last night, on the Lateline program. No doubt for Cup day. Little doubt someone at the ABC is peddling an agenda. We heard again about the alleged 41% of people who play horses and dogs experiencing grief, and there was yet another failure to mention the minnow status of race wagering, compared to poker machines etc. The ABC has too many people behind the scenes peddling their pet agendas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 7:18pm
They might want to be careful going down this rabbit hole, sounds like a good argument to remove the current benefit system and introduce food stamps.

Always take progs arguments to the logical conclusion and make them live up to their own standards.
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Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

The old ABC trotted this very same story out of its stall again last night, on the Lateline program. No doubt for Cup day. Little doubt someone at the ABC is peddling an agenda. We heard again about the alleged 41% of people who play horses and dogs experiencing grief, and there was yet another failure to mention the minnow status of race wagering, compared to poker machines etc. The ABC has too many people behind the scenes peddling their pet agendas.

I missed it, just as you appear to have missed the obvious reason why horse racing issues might get a run at this time of the year, despite previous comments on your thread dropping the obvious hint.

I suggest you write to a conservative MP and ask him/her to do some research into the number of negative V positive reports on horse racing over a year on the ABC. They love the big issues. 

You also appear to wrongly think that poker machine gambling doesn't get mentioned regularly on the ABC - again despite previous references provided. I suggest that's more a reflection on your extremely limited knowledge of ABC activities, and your own "agenda". 

Do you really believe that racing should be above scrutiny? Frankly it gets off very lightly across the media in general. Plenty of (female esp) harassment stories which could be front page news, and probably would be in commerce/banking etc.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:04pm
Someone at the ABC was determined to put a damper on MC day, by wheeling this stuff out yet again. I simply do not believe it to be anything remotely related to a credible "report", in the first place. The references to "regular gamblers" as compared to the unfortunates who fall into the peril of race wagering, is laughable. As I say, exactly what is a "regular" gambler ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:12pm
Seems as plain as the nose on your face but what better day is there to talk about problem gambling on horses?  
(a) when a report is publicly released
(b) six months later when you need some filler 
(c) on the biggest day of horse racing in the nation 
(d) all of the above 
(e) I don't know, I'm just flailing in the dark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:19pm
I got the distinct impression that Emma Albirici had zero enthusiasm for the story. I wonder how far up the chain the directive to put it on, came from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:26pm
It was akin to running a program warning of the perils of glorifying war, or lauding conscientious objectors, on Anzac Day. Very pointed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:30pm
   They can add me to the survey after this Vic Spring Carnival.

The shirt went on Cup day.   I'm saving the trousers for the Oaks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:33pm
Send Turnbull a tweet. He needs another tainted enquiry to divert attention. The union witch hunts haven't worked (in fact they may have been counter-productive in that the bullying and illegal activity unfortunately weren't the real focus) - must be time for another ABC enquiry? Unfortunately most if not all previous enquiries (into bias) have shown the ABC in a very good light iirc. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

It was akin to running a program warning of the perils of glorifying war, or lauding conscientious objectors, on Anzac Day. Very pointed.

You equate the two? Seriously? You must be sitting on a motherlode of iron Max because your compass is awfully distorted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2017 at 9:37pm
I generally have thought the ABC over the years to be good value, but I can see signs of rot in recent times. There is no doubt people have infiltrated it, to use as a vehicle to promote their personal hobby-horses.
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