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4 Corners - Aquanita

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Sneck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

V'landys is a responsible adult and a realist. His actions from very early on have been with the best interests of the industry moving forward. Their establishment of a retirement property shows they are serious about racehorse welfare. A good time to be doing these things because the industry won't always be awash with money. The whip rule is a concession which costs the industry nothing apart from a bit of angst. Don't follow his actions closely but can't ever recall him suggesting that breeders were part of the problem. They should be part of the $$$$ solution
Your usual bad take.
Whilst I would agree padding the whip was a good move the whip rule is fundamentally irrational from Vlandys premise that the padded whip doesn't hurt the horse.
Simple question, if the padded whip doesn't hurt the horse why do you need to limit its use?
The whip rule creates the impression that it hurts the horse.
Most racing fans know the even simpler answer to that. I'm surprised (cough) you can't work it out for yourself. 

It's distinctly possible that tongue ties might eventually go for the same reason, although I can't say I know anything about the physical discomfort/"danger" they present to horses.
But this wasn't done for racing people, they generally oppose it. It was done as a concession that was supposed to make racing look good but failed.
Similar to everything Vlandys does on the welfare front, even good decisions are marketed as reactionary policy that will hold off impending doom for the next five minutes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 4:41pm
Message from Racing Victoria CEO regarding ABC 4 Corners program ​


I am writing to you following the 4 Corners episode that went to air last night which focused on a number of issues within the racing industry.
 
The program was a reminder of how racing can be viewed by the wider community, especially those who are not aware of the importance and priority we all place on integrity and the welfare of horses. Clearly, we need to continue to tell our story and educate the broader public.
 
We have made enormous gains in recent years but when it comes to integrity and protecting the welfare of all participants we can always find ways to improve, and Racing Victoria will continue to invest and strive for improvement and better outcomes.
 
Our commitment to integrity is unwavering and we welcome the arrival of Jamie Stier as the new head of our Integrity Department. Jamie is one of the world’s most experienced and respected integrity officials who is committed to a program that will further enhance integrity by:
 

  • Increasing surveillance on and off the track
  • Expanding raceday testing and stable visits
  • Improving monitoring of wagering activity
  • Utilising technology enhancements such as a digital lodgement system to more closely monitor horse treatments
  • Reviewing all key integrity and raceday processes to ensure we have best practice
     

In terms of equine welfare we continue to invest in:
 

  • The expansion of the Off The Track program to provide more opportunities for an even larger number of thoroughbreds
  • Equine welfare research, including a jointly funded $5.25m project with the University of Melbourne looking into the early detection and prevention of bone injuries
  • Partnerships with organisations that share our commitment to improving equine welfare including working with RSPCA Victoria on measures such as improving the line of sight on thoroughbreds once they have retired from racing
     

While Racing Victoria is totally committed to the integrity of our sport and welfare of our horses we cannot do this alone and believe it is a collective responsibility of all those involved in racing. The greatest asset we have in upholding integrity is the information that comes from the industry itself. We encourage anyone with information to pass it on to the Integrity Department, the Integrity Commissioner or Victoria Police.
 
I thank you for your ongoing support and commitment to the Victorian thoroughbred industry.
 
Yours sincerely,
 

Giles Thompson
Chief Executive Officer

Racing Victoria

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 4:49pm
Integrity said 10 times for those playing at home.

"Clearly, we need to continue to tell our story and educate the broader public"

Think someone needs to educate Giles first Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

It's distinctly possible that tongue ties might eventually go for the same reason, although I can't say I know anything about the physical discomfort/"danger" they present to horses.


Tongue ties are on for at least 20mins, usually a stocking tightened by using both hands to pull on the knot.
Obviously there's a very fine line between uncomfortably tight, perfect & loose enough to fall off but there's no way of monitoring the correct tension for each horse.
Many times I've heard trainers explain a better run with "He resented the tongue tie last start" & have personally seen how purple the tongues are on removal.
I don't know about you guys but if I cut the circulation on a finger enough to send it purple, it damned well hurts so God only knows what a tongue feels like & no, I won't be trying it.
Dentists & others have now found that certain shaped bits put so much pressure on the tongue that horses sensibly pull it back away from the pressure/pain which naturally will partially block the airway.
Racing is the worst for its' 'we've always done it this way etc.'mentality but it has to start getting with the times.
Germany has banned tongue ties - I wonder why Wink
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 5:19pm
My mail is that Germany has banned tongue ties because few of their country-women wear stockings any more, plus in any event they won't be able to import them duty-free from Britain any more after Brexit.  Ouch


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Fair comment Oversee - EXCEPT - the former are farmed animals for the purpose to be eaten / used by us to sustain life. Thoroughbreds on the other hand are specifically bred to race so that people can PUNT on them - no other reason. Big difference in my opinion. People don't have to get their punting fix on live animals racing around the track. For every enthusiast on here there are a thousand punters who don't give a toss about horses - all about gambling & if you take the industry away they will quite happily punt on Trackside, Sport, machines or the like. The Industry must do better if it wants to survive 
Some animals are more equal than others is not an argument made by animal activists.
Who experiences the better quality of life, a racehorse or a battery caged hen?
Thoroughbred are not specifically bred so that people can punt of them and there is nothing immoral about punting regardless.
How many would be bred without the punt to incentivise the game ? Also I did not suggest punting was immoral (even though many in the community would). To my mind the worst I would call it is a selfish pastime that more often than not causes more trouble than its worth (& I've been punting all my life - sick I know). I was just stating that humans killing an animal in order to feed themselves is one thing & acceptable to most in the community. The need to inflict pain on animals in order to satisfy the need to gamble is a much harder sell - as the industry is finding out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Most racing fans know the even simpler answer to that. I'm surprised (cough) you can't work it out for yourself. 

It's distinctly possible that tongue ties might eventually go for the same reason, although I can't say I know anything about the physical discomfort/"danger" they present to horses.
But this wasn't done for racing people, they generally oppose it. It was done as a concession that was supposed to make racing look good but failed.
Similar to everything Vlandys does on the welfare front, even good decisions are marketed as reactionary policy that will hold off impending doom for the next five minutes.

Good to see you worked out the simple answer to your own simple question. All good managers react to current issues, leaders try to anticipate future challenges. Some are primarily followers ( eg past RV execs) and few put it all on the line in order to win the best deal for their industry. 

You appear to be struggling with how horse racing works. V'landys isn't king, he's but one vice among many. He can and does go it alone if he thinks something is worthwhile. He's flawed (who isn't?) and his approach grates on many but there's not a shadow of doubt he's delivered on some very big items even if he pays lip service on others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 5:59pm
Another issue that came up was that the significant increase in country race prizemoney (30% ?) over the past 12 months in NSW had in effect been counter productive for country participants. Encouraged more city/provincial trainers apparently to raid the goodies. Is this a fair comment or not ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 6:05pm
The life ban of Smerdon has not been ratified.

You can almost be certain Bailey stuffed something up and they will get off on a technicality.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:


Another issue that came up was that the significant increase in country race prizemoney (30% ?) over the past 12 months in NSW had in effect been counter productive for country participants. Encouraged more city/provincial trainers apparently to raid the goodies. Is this a fair comment or not ?


That is certainly what has happened.

The only way I see it changing is to drop prizemoney out there.

That said, not sure anybody is owed a living from the industry, but it would be good if they were.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Passing Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Another issue that came up was that the significant increase in country race prizemoney (30% ?) over the past 12 months in NSW had in effect been counter productive for country participants. Encouraged more city/provincial trainers apparently to raid the goodies. Is this a fair comment or not ?

It is on the Northern Rivers at Lismore, Ballina and Murwillumbah, with SE Queensland trainers taking a good chunk of the prize-money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bluey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 6:09pm
What about the segment when Michael asked Giles about the tip off to the trainer with regards to no blood testing ..They new the trainer yet can't find the person inside you gave the tip off.  Quiet easy I would have thought ..get the phone of the trainer  follow up with the telco companies ...serious stuff if they had inside info of when testing was happening...Giles didn't seemed to fussed ...First impression of Giles ..wrong man for the job
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote The Brig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

It's distinctly possible that tongue ties might eventually go for the same reason, although I can't say I know anything about the physical discomfort/"danger" they present to horses.


Tongue ties are on for at least 20mins, usually a stocking tightened by using both hands to pull on the knot.
Obviously there's a very fine line between uncomfortably tight, perfect & loose enough to fall off but there's no way of monitoring the correct tension for each horse.
Many times I've heard trainers explain a better run with "He resented the tongue tie last start" & have personally seen how purple the tongues are on removal.
I don't know about you guys but if I cut the circulation on a finger enough to send it purple, it damned well hurts so God only knows what a tongue feels like & no, I won't be trying it.
Dentists & others have now found that certain shaped bits put so much pressure on the tongue that horses sensibly pull it back away from the pressure/pain which naturally will partially block the airway.
Racing is the worst for its' 'we've always done it this way etc.'mentality but it has to start getting with the times.
Germany has banned tongue ties - I wonder why Wink

I felt like applying one to Giles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Another issue that came up was that the significant increase in country race prizemoney (30% ?) over the past 12 months in NSW had in effect been counter productive for country participants. Encouraged more city/provincial trainers apparently to raid the goodies. Is this a fair comment or not ?

Don't know the answer 11 but anecdotally I'd say yes, on balance. This was one criticism of prizemoney V cost relief although to be fair some fees have also been reduced and starter subsidies introduced. 

Best answered by a country trainer / owner. Some areas will feel the impact of city and prov trainers  more than others. Baker regularly hits the Bathurst area.

One idea they could use is to have a certain number of country-trained only race meetings in each district every year. 

Country trainers and owners need to be lobbying if it is a real and increasing problem but I don't know if they actually have an industry body. If it exists it is probably moribund, like many of those groups.

RNSW conducted feedback forums around the state some time ago. Can't recall seeing any summary of those meetings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:

Another issue that came up was that the significant increase in country race prizemoney (30% ?) over the past 12 months in NSW had in effect been counter productive for country participants. Encouraged more city/provincial trainers apparently to raid the goodies. Is this a fair comment or not ?

Don't know the answer 11 but anecdotally I'd say yes, on balance. This was one criticism of prizemoney V cost relief although to be fair some fees have also been reduced and starter subsidies introduced (not sure if these applied in country areas)

Best answered by a country trainer / owner. Some areas will feel the impact of city and prov trainers  more than others. Baker regularly hits the Bathurst area.

One idea they could use is to have a certain number of country-trained only race meetings in each district every year. 

Country trainers and owners need to be lobbying if it is a real and increasing problem but I don't know if they actually have an industry body. If it exists it is probably moribund, like many of those groups.

RNSW conducted feedback forums around the state some time ago. Can't recall seeing any summary of those meetings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:


Another issue that came up was that the significant increase in country race prizemoney (30% ?) over the past 12 months in NSW had in effect been counter productive for country participants. Encouraged more city/provincial trainers apparently to raid the goodies. Is this a fair comment or not ?


That is certainly what has happened.

The only way I see it changing is to drop prizemoney out there.

That said, not sure anybody is owed a living from the industry, but it would be good if they were.



Sadly it's another case of "If you can't stand the heat...................." Cry
Many have succumbed & there'll be plenty more.
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 8:11pm
"He should be fired for his comments in the meeting where he ceded moral authority to political agitators"

That's ridiculous. He did nothing of the sort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 10:00pm
It is the responsibility of all participants to assist in the integrity fight.

What a complete moron this guy is.

Ellerton tells an officer that there are suspicious activities on raceday, and nothing happens.

If the investigation, if there was one, was done, it led to nothing, and the informant, who should be applauded for contacting the officer, gets no feedback or no follow up action.

This guy seriously needs to look for another job, or transfer to the publicity department, where can not f#@k anything up!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Overseer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Originally posted by Tontonan Tontonan wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

 

Post a link busta.



I presume Overseer is talking about - 


It is hardly original research though.


Thanks Tontonan. A small snapshot very much lacking in the detail required to satisfy detractors.


Lacking in detail? A peer reviewed published scientific article with an extensive bibliography of further cited scientific references? That's not what I would call a "small snapshot very much lacking in detail".

But an opinion piece by an unspecified author in People and Horse Magazine - well nothing more needs to be said does it?
Watch the commission go on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 10:33pm
Yes, lol, straight out of the management playbook Voyager. He would have been better off saying what RV planned to do and what he expected participants to do rather than doling out platitudes.

It's easy to criticise from the cheap seats but cultural change has to start at the top. Yet despite major cobalt cases, TCO2 performance enhancement, etc we don't see anyone on the RA Integrity Committee pushing for a '3 strikes and find yourself another industry' rule, or something along those lines. That would send a message, as would using race fixing laws to prosecute the worst cases.Pigs will probably fly first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 10:47pm
This will be interesting Giles Thompson about to come on with Brent Zerafa on the replay of After The Last on racing.com.
Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 10:48pm
Finally 3BM you have made a wonderful suggestion.
 
As an aside I've often wondered if most of racing's ills & inability to implement decisive & effective legal procedures stems from the fact that racing has always be run by a class of gentlemen who always look after their gentlemen friends. It is "their " industry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 10:49pm
It must be cool to have your own TV station.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by Overseer Overseer wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Originally posted by Tontonan Tontonan wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

 

Post a link busta.



I presume Overseer is talking about - 


It is hardly original research though.


Thanks Tontonan. A small snapshot very much lacking in the detail required to satisfy detractors.


Lacking in detail? A peer reviewed published scientific article with an extensive bibliography of further cited scientific references? That's not what I would call a "small snapshot very much lacking in detail".

But an opinion piece by an unspecified author in People and Horse Magazine - well nothing more needs to be said does it?

Anyone with half an ounce of nous can see the huge gaps in the data in her study as far as knowing what happens to thoroughbreds from birth. It was focused on refuting particular claims, not exploring the realities - probably because no verifiable data actually exists. Guesstimates may be the best we can do at the moment but they aren't credible unless real, traceable numbers are used. Racing's Annual Reports have data on foals and participants every year. From memory that data suggests tens of thousands of horses leave racing over a 5+ year period. Her paper offered very little in regard to what actually happened to a large proportion of those horses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by Overseer Overseer wrote:

 

Lacking in detail? A peer reviewed published scientific article with an extensive bibliography of further cited scientific references? That's not what I would call a "small snapshot very much lacking in detail".

But an opinion piece by an unspecified author in People and Horse Magazine - well nothing more needs to be said does it?

I presume you're referring to my previous comment below? You'll have to explain the issue to me because it seems obvious what I was suggesting - and it certainly wasn't that the link contained definitive or compelling information, unless interesting and background have changed their meanings overnight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 8:55am
Didn’t see it and based on comments here and other social media I have no interest in seeing it. Sounds like 4 Corners taking several angles in an attempt to discredit the racing industry with Nothing really enlightening uncovered. Obviously high in the public outrage caused by their Greyhound live baiting expose they decided to have another crack at a bigger target. Didn’t have enough on any particular topic so took a shotgun approach to see what gains a reaction.

In reality you could gather a whole heap of questionable aspects on any industry and cram it into a 45 min piece of TV.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linghi11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Lordy Lordy wrote:

Didn’t see it and based on comments here and other social media I have no interest in seeing it. Sounds like 4 Corners taking several angles in an attempt to discredit the racing industry with Nothing really enlightening uncovered. Obviously high in the public outrage caused by their Greyhound live baiting expose they decided to have another crack at a bigger target. Didn’t have enough on any particular topic so took a shotgun approach to see what gains a reaction.

In reality you could gather a whole heap of questionable aspects on any industry and cram it into a 45 min piece of TV.


If they did one on the RSPCA it would be much better viewing.
to the victor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 12:32pm
I agree linghi



What about the stuff up or lack of investigation, or lack of authority we saw with the former coppers handling of her horses on her property.

I will bet you everything in my a bank account we will never see a four corners 'expose', on how the RSPCA, have been informed of animal neglect, have knowledge of the culprits and those responsible, but nothing happens.

And what about the judges and magistrates, who sit before animal neglect cases, and give the culprits, a slap on the wrist.

If four corners did their usual thorough job, then they could of had a three week, three part story, on just one aspect of what they were trying to expose.

Just shows how concerned they were about righting a wrong, any wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linghi11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 12:51pm
I’d also like to see their financials including pay packets to their managerial staff, office expenses, numbers of animals they put down etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 12:56pm
Why don't you guys petition the commercial networks to do the expose ?

Don't they do a better job ?

Wouldn't they lap it up ?




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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