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Mr Prospector View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2014 at 11:57am
O&R The book doesn't give a clearer explanation but convention would say 2x3 is definitely inbred and even 3x3 or 3x4 is often classified as inbreeding . If you can get a hold of a copy of Genetic Heritage by Ken McLean even though some of the info on genetics may be outdated it is a great starting point IMHO .

The point of the post is to highlight that you need as faultless as possible in your stock when doing close matings otherwise you will have plenty of failures .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2014 at 7:34pm
Would you consider an mare who had shocking front legs and was unraced because of them to be carrying a fault ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote JoH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2014 at 8:06pm
Mr P: The point of the post is to highlight that you need as faultless as possible in your stock when doing close matings otherwise you will have plenty of failures .

Couldn't agree more.  Any very closely bred mating is IMO a "very" mating.  Whatever the trait, ability, conformation feature I am wanting to consolidate or accentuate the closer the cross the greater the possibility the outcome will be very ... very good or very bad.  
It also follows, or it should follow that the breeder accept responsibility for that outcome.


Bradjm: Would you consider an (sic) mare who had shocking front legs and was unraced because of them to be carrying a fault ?

Shocking as in scarred or shocking as in bench knees, off-set cannons etc ... hard to say without seeing her or knowing if they were the reason she never raced.   

There are lots of reasons why a mare doesn't make it to the track but not all of them will / should impact her usefulness as a broodmare.   One of the best looking and interesting (on paper) horses I have bred was going great guns in her first prep - came home for a spell and somehow managed to nearly slice her off knee and did an 'outstanding' (not) job on ligaments etc.  She never raced, one leg doesn't look too flash but her broodmare potential is unchanged. 

Also if your mare was born with those wonky pins do you know where in her pedigree they are likely to have come from?   If you do and the fault isn't too horrible you might (I say might) be able to choose a stallion that breeds away from that line.  






suck it up ... Life isn't run at w.f.a. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Off and racing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2014 at 8:49pm
Thanks Mr P and JoH makes sense, your amplifying certain genetics by doubling them up in basic terms hence your "very" comment. Could need a bit of luck if your doing it to get the right traits coming thru
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2014 at 9:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 9:00am
Joh

Not sure on exact faults but stud told me she was born with the worst legs you would ever see and never got to track because of it.

We bought her first two progeny both as correct as you'd ever see.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whitt0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 9:28am
That's a tough call. Proves it is a bit of a lottery. I suspect though, if they are wonky there is a greater probability they will come out like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Mr Prospector Mr Prospector wrote:

O&R The book doesn't give a clearer explanation but convention would say 2x3 is definitely inbred and even 3x3 or 3x4 is often classified as inbreeding . If you can get a hold of a copy of Genetic Heritage by Ken McLean even though some of the info on genetics may be outdated it is a great starting point IMHO .

The point of the post is to highlight that you need as faultless as possible in your stock when doing close matings otherwise you will have plenty of failures .

I would love to see this years Oaks winner bred to this years Derby winner.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 1:44pm
It is interesting that Australia and Taghrooda are bred on such a similar pattern , if you had a Cape Cross mare it might be a good pointer as to future mating . There is an article in the new Bluebloods mag about Australia and how he is from the family of Kingston Town .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Mr Prospector Mr Prospector wrote:

It is interesting that Australia and Taghrooda are bred on such a similar pattern , if you had a Cape Cross mare it might be a good pointer as to future mating . There is an article in the new Bluebloods mag about Australia and how he is from the family of Kingston Town .

Gradisca being the common thread.

Its also the family of the talented Tres Blue, Phebe being the link.
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reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Off and racing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2014 at 12:42am
Could you imagine the potential price tag on that foal. Now that would break some records
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2014 at 9:37am
Hello,
in this thread (2x3 duplications) "Djebel" mentioned Tres Blue,

The first 2x3 Duplication in his ped I noticed was Orsini (2x3 Athanasius, German Derby Winner and 5times Champion Sire in Germany. So I went further through his ped and found severalo Thorughbreds with this Close inbreeding.
Ksar 2x3 Omnium (Tourbillon)
Wellingtonia 2x3 Pocahontas (Omnium)
Le Volcan 2x3 Durban (Reliance)
Blood Red 2x3 Ellen Horne (Chulo)
Flying Fox 2x3 Galopin (Alchimist)
Red Flag 2x3 Ellen Horne(Olymp - Pazman)

Regards, Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacktypepedigree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2014 at 8:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whitt0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2014 at 9:16pm
Cheers blacktype.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2014 at 10:30pm
What's the percentage stat on that Black Type, ie how many in total have been bred on that cross ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linghi11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2018 at 10:29pm
Does anyone know how 3 x 3 Kingmambo goes?
to the victor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hazyview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by linghi11 linghi11 wrote:

Does anyone know how 3 x 3 Kingmambo goes?

Arion has 9 winners from 20 runners, all in Japan, for 3x3 along sire line. Obviously there are other 3x3 patterns, but this probably most common type.

Overall Kingmambo inbreeding (all types, so inc 3x4 etc) the stats are 40 winners 80 runners from 116 named foals and just one stakes placed horse called Amazing Lips in France. She's 3x4.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linghi11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2018 at 8:13pm
Great! thank you Hazyview
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2018 at 3:59pm
back when i haunted the village regularly i bred a colt by a son of danehill out of a mare by danehills bro eagle eyed the mare was a granddaughter of danzigs sister dame margot so, had a triple of pas de nom in 4 to go along with, perfect conformation, ability? never proven, got killed in a paddock accident
definately do it again with the right mare and stallion, looking around for a similar chance
doesnt matter what philosophy one subscribes to in breeding, sound well conformed stock is the key


Edited by take2 - 30 Sep 2018 at 4:03pm
dont put mouth in gear before engaging brain

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2018 at 4:08pm
big duke, a cup runner 3x3 kingmambo
dont put mouth in gear before engaging brain

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2018 at 6:00pm
Take 2, I think I remember you posting a picture of him and was lovely, how sad you lost him, I know the feeling.Unhappy
 
We bred one Take 2, not far off a trial, very young in the head still but a beautiful bodied and well conformed gelding.
Statue of David -  not sure how to post his pedigree??
2x3 Savannah Success etc..
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2018 at 6:14pm
Click image then Zoom for clarity.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2018 at 10:08pm
Hello,
I'm not sure whether I have already mentioned Adler (=Eagle), he is bred 2x3 Aiyana (female inbreeding!), she is a FS of Alya, from Alveole Family.
 
For your info he will run next Sunday at the "Silbernes Pferd", Group 3, 3000 meter at Hoppegarten (near Berlin). So far I know was placed in the "Union Rennen" and other betterclass races/Handicaps.
 
regards, Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2018 at 1:09pm
I wish you good luck as that's a Juliet line mare.  That said I wouldn't be game to breed so close.  As you say need good conformation etc but still nine times out of ten it wouldn't work.  There was a very good stud in South Africa which stood a son of Carbine.  He was a Champion sire and then all they wanted to do was inbreed to him.  It finished the stud.  So always be careful going that close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 1:37pm
AZEEZATY (AUS)Chestnut filly 2015 
Snitzel
Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
Snippets' Lass
Bay 1993
Snippets
Bay 1984
Lunchtime
Chestnut 1970
Silly Season
Great Occasion
1962
1965
1-g
7-f
Easy Date
Bay 1977
Grand Chaudiere
Scampering
1968
1970
19-b
20-a
Snow Finch
Bay 1984
Storm Bird
Bay 1978
Northern Dancer
South Ocean
1961
1967
2-d
4-j
A Realgirl
Bay 1976
In Reality
Secret Verdict
1964
1966
21-a
2-c
Dazzledar
Bay 2008
Zamindar
Bay 1994
Gone West
Bay 1984
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Secrettame
Chestnut 1978
Secretariat
Tamerett
1970
1962
2-s
2-f
Zaizafon
Chestnut 1982
The Minstrel
Chestnut 1974
Northern Dancer
Fleur
1961
1964
2-d
8-f
Mofida
Chestnut 1974
Right Tack
Wold Lass
1966
1960
10-a
9-e
Razzle
Bay 2002
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Petitioner
1959
1952
4-n
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Bay 1968
Ribot
Flower Bowl
1952
1952
4-l
4-d
Spring Adieu
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Natalma
1963
1957
1-s
2-d
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m,5m x 5m,4m Danzig4m x 3f Razyana4m x 3f 
  Natalmax 5m,5f
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 6:19am
Possibly worth reading this as it relates to inbreeding


"135,572 Thoroughbred horses revealed a strong negative relationship between Wright’s inbreeding coefficient, F, and five measures of racing performance that encompass a range of factors that contribute to exercise performance."

"The negative relationship between F and performance can be explained by a genetic load of partially deleterious alleles still being carried by the population."

"In contrast with the results from Wright’s inbreeding coefficient, the ancestral history coefficient, AHC, showed a strong positive association with racing performance"

"This statistic, described by Baumung, et al, counts the number of times that an allele has been IBD in an individual’s pedigree, thus providing a comprehensive reflection of selection for favourable traits over time. The AHC statistic is based on the assumption that an allele that has been IBD multiple times in an individual’s pedigree is likely to have a neutral or positive effect on fitness. In contrast, an allele that is IBD for the first time is more likely to have a negative effect on fitness. Therefore, individuals with higher AHC are more likely to contain larger proportions of alleles in their genomes that have been positively selected over many generations."
-----

The two calculations are done differently and speak to different things. The COI speaks to general inbreeding in the pedigree with the understanding that horses that have a higher inbreeding coefficient tend to be less effective as runners. 

This is balanced by the opposite with the Ancestry coefficient. The higher AHC represents the fact that when considering mendelian segregation, more ancestors end up identical by descent, that is they are inherited from both the sire and dam in the subject horse. 

To give an example.....

Think about the 8 grandparents of two foals and lets say that in both foals there are 8 strains of Mr Prospector. They would have the same level of inbreeding to Mr Prospector because they both had the 8 strains. 

In the first foal, 4 of these strains appear in the direct great-grandsire and four appear in the direct great-granddam

In the second foal, each of the 8 grandparents have 1 strain of Mr Prospector.

In the first foal, the chances of Mr Prospector being inherited by the foal is quite low as while the direct grandsire has 4 strains, he can only pass one on to his son (the grandsire) and it is only a 50/50 chance of inheriting. Equally the great granddam, while having 4 strains can only pass one on, with a 50/50 chance. So for the next two generations, Mr Prospector on the top and bottom of that foals pedigree has to compete to survive and if you simulate the mating numbers of times you can work out exactly the chance that Mr Prospector survives from the great-grandsire and from the great-granddam to both appear in the foal. It is quite a low chance so the Ancestry Coefficient of a foal bred this way is low.

In the second foal he has 8 strains of Mr Prospector but one appears in every great-grandparent. As these great grandparents have a 50/50 chance of passing them on, it is much more likely that at least 4 of the grandparents will have Mr Prospector and thus the probability of the foal having Mr Prospector from both the sire and dam are much higher. It will have a much higher AHC.

So when you see close inbreeding working, it is most likely that the ancestry that is both behind what is being inbred to, but also appearing in parts of the pedigree that are not inbred to, are similar. 

It is probably why inbreeding to Danehill, an inbred horse himself, hasnt been as successful as expected as the close inbreeding (a negative) is outweighing the positives in the background ancestry. 
Abel Tasman...Keen Ice...Divisidero....Verrazano...Catchy...Carrick...Ivictory...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 3:20pm
$725,000

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 4:34pm
She does have a nice photo Djebel (I've even got a tick next to her for looks) but that doesn't make that it always works.  I didn't look too hard at her pedigree as I'd marked her to see what she bought.  Obviously way over the price I be following her at!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 8:32pm
Hello,
during the last days I saw some more horses with a 2x3 inbreeding:
 
Miss France 2x3 Asterus and her dam Nafah is 2x3 Zariba (Dubawi)
 
Amora 2x3 Tourbillon (Love In, Lomitas)
 
Just to make things even more interesting, all mentioned broodmares belong to same damline
 
A more contemporary German example:
Alandia 2x3 Surumu
dam of Altano, Araldo, Araldo Junior
according pedquery 2 of her offspring were send to AUS, unfortunalety one of them met with a sad fate at the "Melbourne Cup".
 
regards from Germany,
Ticino
Astana 2x3 Tourbillon  (Dalalakhani)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 8:49pm
Hello,
a New Sire stands in Germany 2019. His name is Wild Chief (by Doyen) and his dam is bred
2x3 Surumu.
 
regards, Ticino
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