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2 x 3 duplications

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    Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 7:32pm
Hi, I'm new on this forum, but would be really interested on hearing peoples thoughts on breeding 2 x 3 especially if the duplication is the proposed stallions dam sire. I am fully aware other factors should be taken into account when planning a mating rather then where the duplications lay, but would be interested to here peoples different perspectives and also reasoning behind the thinking.

Many thanks in advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 7:47pm
Quite recently there have been more than a couple of metrop winners 2 x 3 or even closer, to Danehill but I know that's of little help to you Wink
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 7:52pm
MCGUIGAN  (IRE) ch. C, 2012 {14-c} DP = 2-3-9-2-0 (16) DI = 1.46   CD = 0.31
    Breeder: J S Bolger (IRE)

(CLOSE)
TEOFILO (IRE)
b. 2004
GALILEO (IRE)
b. 1998
SADLERS WELLS (USA)
b. 1981 [CS]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
 NEARCTIC (CAN)br. 1954
NATALMA (USA) b. 1957 *
FAIRY BRIDGE (USA)*
b. 1975
BOLD REASON (USA)b. 1968
SPECIAL (USA)b. 1969 *
URBAN SEA (USA)*
ch. 1989
MISWAKI (USA)
ch. 1978
MR. PROSPECTOR (USA)b. 1970 [BC]
HOPESPRINGSETERNAL (USA)ch. 1971
ALLEGRETTA (GB)*
ch. 1978
LOMBARD (GER)ch. 1967
ANATEVKA (GER)ch. 1969
SPEIRBHEAN (IRE)
b. 1998
DANEHILL (USA)
b. 1986
 DANZIG (USA)
dkb/br. 1977 [IC]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC]
PAS DE NOM (USA)br. 1968
RAZYANA (USA)
b. 1981
HIS MAJESTY (USA)b. 1968 [C]
SPRING ADIEU (CAN)b. 1974
SAVIOUR (USA)
b. 1987
MAJESTIC LIGHT (USA)
b. 1973
MAJESTIC PRINCE (USA)ch. 1966
IRRADIATE (USA)gr. 1966
VICTORIAN QUEEN (CAN)
b. 1971
VICTORIA PARK (CAN)b. 1957
WILLOWFIELD (CAN)b. 1965
SCRIBONIA (IRE)
b. 2001
DANEHILL (USA)
b. 1986
 DANZIG (USA)
dkb/br. 1977 [IC]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
 NEARCTIC (CAN)br. 1954
NATALMA (USA) b. 1957 *
PAS DE NOM (USA)
br. 1968
ADMIRALS VOYAGE (USA)dkb/br. 1959
PETITIONER (GB)b. 1952 *
RAZYANA (USA)
b. 1981
HIS MAJESTY (USA)
b. 1968 [C]
RIBOT (GB)b. 1952 [CP]
FLOWER BOWL (USA)b. 1952 *
SPRING ADIEU (CAN)
b. 1974
BUCKPASSER (USA)b. 1963 [C]
NATALMA (USA) b. 1957 *
SMAOINEAMH (IRE)
ch. 1986
TAP ON WOOD (IRE)
ch. 1976
SALLUST (GB)
ch. 1969
PALL MALL (IRE)ch. 1955
BANDARILLA (GB)ch. 1960
CAT O'MOUNTAINE (GB)
ch. 1967
RAGUSA (IRE)b. 1960
MARIE ELIZABETH (IRE)ch. 1948
FANGHORN (GB)
ch. 1966
CROCKET (GB)
ch. 1960
KING OF THE TUDORS (GB)ch. 1950
CHANDELIER (GB)ch. 1955 *
HONEYMOON HOUSE (GB)
ch. 1955
HONEYWAY (GB)dkb/br. 1941
PRIMAVERA (GB)ch. 1949



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MichaelM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

MCGUIGAN  (IRE) ch. C, 2012 {14-c} DP = 2-3-9-2-0 (16) DI = 1.46   CD = 0.31
    Breeder: J S Bolger (IRE)

(CLOSE)
TEOFILO (IRE)
b. 2004
GALILEO (IRE)
b. 1998
SADLERS WELLS (USA)
b. 1981 [CS]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
 NEARCTIC (CAN)br. 1954
NATALMA (USA) b. 1957 *
FAIRY BRIDGE (USA)*
b. 1975
BOLD REASON (USA)b. 1968
SPECIAL (USA)b. 1969 *
URBAN SEA (USA)*
ch. 1989
MISWAKI (USA)
ch. 1978
MR. PROSPECTOR (USA)b. 1970 [BC]
HOPESPRINGSETERNAL (USA)ch. 1971
ALLEGRETTA (GB)*
ch. 1978
LOMBARD (GER)ch. 1967
ANATEVKA (GER)ch. 1969
SPEIRBHEAN (IRE)
b. 1998
DANEHILL (USA)
b. 1986
 DANZIG (USA)
dkb/br. 1977 [IC]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC]
PAS DE NOM (USA)br. 1968
RAZYANA (USA)
b. 1981
HIS MAJESTY (USA)b. 1968 [C]
SPRING ADIEU (CAN)b. 1974
SAVIOUR (USA)
b. 1987
MAJESTIC LIGHT (USA)
b. 1973
MAJESTIC PRINCE (USA)ch. 1966
IRRADIATE (USA)gr. 1966
VICTORIAN QUEEN (CAN)
b. 1971
VICTORIA PARK (CAN)b. 1957
WILLOWFIELD (CAN)b. 1965
SCRIBONIA (IRE)
b. 2001
DANEHILL (USA)
b. 1986
 DANZIG (USA)
dkb/br. 1977 [IC]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
 NEARCTIC (CAN)br. 1954
NATALMA (USA) b. 1957 *
PAS DE NOM (USA)
br. 1968
ADMIRALS VOYAGE (USA)dkb/br. 1959
PETITIONER (GB)b. 1952 *
RAZYANA (USA)
b. 1981
HIS MAJESTY (USA)
b. 1968 [C]
RIBOT (GB)b. 1952 [CP]
FLOWER BOWL (USA)b. 1952 *
SPRING ADIEU (CAN)
b. 1974
BUCKPASSER (USA)b. 1963 [C]
NATALMA (USA) b. 1957 *
SMAOINEAMH (IRE)
ch. 1986
TAP ON WOOD (IRE)
ch. 1976
SALLUST (GB)
ch. 1969
PALL MALL (IRE)ch. 1955
BANDARILLA (GB)ch. 1960
CAT O'MOUNTAINE (GB)
ch. 1967
RAGUSA (IRE)b. 1960
MARIE ELIZABETH (IRE)ch. 1948
FANGHORN (GB)
ch. 1966
CROCKET (GB)
ch. 1960
KING OF THE TUDORS (GB)ch. 1950
CHANDELIER (GB)ch. 1955 *
HONEYMOON HOUSE (GB)
ch. 1955
HONEYWAY (GB)dkb/br. 1941
PRIMAVERA (GB)ch. 1949


Jim Bolger does this quite regularly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 8:02pm
I'll try and find a list of group 1 and 2 winners and see how successful he has been with this pattern.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 9:32pm
Don't bother Djebel. It's been tried too many times with total failures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Don't bother Djebel. It's been tried too many times with total failures.

What quality of bloodstock is generally used in these patterns ?

I get the impression its usually failed horses that are being used, Obviously using a quality horses to target but using poor stock to start with, if that makes any sense ?

Galileo was a super racehorse and is proving a super sire, I would imagine if his best daughter was sent to his best grand son based on racetrack form it would be a success. If tried on numerous occassions it would out perform the normal success rate.

Did that make sense ? Big smile


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 9:57pm
No it doesn't make sense, because poor dupes simply aren't used 2 x 3.  And the particular scenario you present is at this point totally fanciful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

No it doesn't make sense, because poor dupes simply aren't used 2 x 3.  And the particular scenario you present is at this point totally fanciful.

I didnt say the horse duplicated is poor I am saying the horses being used, The stallion and mare are probably poor.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 10:25pm
Why would anyone use a poor sire and a poor mare to achieve a particular 2 x3 cross?
 
In fact, why would anyone use a poor sire and poor mare period?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Why would anyone use a poor sire and a poor mare to achieve a particular 2 x3 cross?
 
In fact, why would anyone use a poor sire and poor mare period?

I guess it depends on your interpretation of "poor" but I would have thought they were being used constantly.

There are 1000s of horses produced in Australia every year that would be considered to be by poor stallions out of poor mares.


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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

 

Jim Bolger does this quite regularly.



I see this is a family he has had abit of success with, Intense Focus Loch Garman and Eva Luna 3 of his 22 individual group 1 winners.


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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 2:46pm
It would depend on the ancestor duplicated, some do better than others. This excerpt is from pedigree analyst  Les Pratt's blog...

 "...close IN-BREEDING to SIR TRISTRAM in Chapter 7 showed 27.40% of named foals did not get to the races.
A much bigger percent of 83.14% of named  3X3 in-bred STARKINGDOM horses did not reach the races.

…..Compare these in-bred matings with the above figures:
In-bred SIR TRISTRAM named horses showed 59.13% won a race.
In-bred STAR KINGDOM named horses showed 7.41% won a race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Nostradamus II Nostradamus II wrote:

It would depend on the ancestor duplicated, some do better than others. This excerpt is from pedigree analyst  Les Pratt's blog...

 "...close IN-BREEDING to SIR TRISTRAM in Chapter 7 showed 27.40% of named foals did not get to the races.
A much bigger percent of 83.14% of named  3X3 in-bred STARKINGDOM horses did not reach the races.

…..Compare these in-bred matings with the above figures:
In-bred SIR TRISTRAM named horses showed 59.13% won a race.
In-bred STAR KINGDOM named horses showed 7.41% won a race.

To me this means very little without knowing the quality of the stock used.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:



To me this means very little without knowing the quality of the stock used.



And the quantity! 2 successes out of 3 is inconclusive. 666 out of 1000 is great evidence.

Edited by Gay3 - 03 Jun 2014 at 5:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Off and racing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2014 at 12:05pm
Thanks for all of the reponses, Djebel have you had any luck finding a list of stakes performed horses bred on close up duplications? I know people either like or hate the idea, and I would be interested to hear opinions when people see 2 x 3 crosses on catologue pages at the sales if it interests them or turns them away (taking all other factors out of the equation). It is just interesting to hear the rationable behind the opinions so I can get a better understanding going forward. I have come accross it in a couple of well performed horses, and I know although times are a little bit different these days but Marcel Boussac tried many of these patterns for alot of success producing multiple Arc winners (which with a name like Djebel he is probibly well aware :) ) and Bousssac's stock went onto strenghten the Aga Khans bloodstock families. Obviously you only really hear about the successes but I would be interested to find out if anyone has some hard data to advise if this kind of duplications are worth trying. Nostradamus was there anywhere to find the actual figures behind the perecentages and a way to see which sons of Star Kingdom made up the percentages? Also I couldn't imagine Jim Bolger would be using 2x3 pattern's if there wasn't something in it that gives him the opinion that it may provide some sort of quality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2014 at 12:18pm
I've just found this by googling  thoroughbred incestuously inbred:

Mixed blessings of close inbreeding

Danedream’s relative and fellow Arc winner Coronation, who was inbred 2×2 to Tourbillon, was a top-class performer on the racecourse but compiled a poor record in the paddocks

Sunday, October 30, 2011
Andrew Caulfield

Although it cost only €9,000 to buy Danedream when the daughter of Lomitas appeared at Baden-Baden’s breeze-up sale in 2010, it isn’t difficult to argue that this stunning winner of the Arc has a female line worthy of an Arc winner.

If you trace her female line back eight generations, you come to a mare called Saana. The daughter of Asterus, born in 1931, was good enough to win the Prix de la Salamandre and finish third in the Prix de la Foret, but she did even better as a broodmare. It is her Mahmoud filly Geranium who ranks as Danedream’s seventh dam, and there are also some very good racemares in the intervening generations.

For example, Danedream’s sixth dam, the Pharis mare Monrovia, won both the Prix de Royaumont and Prix de Royallieu, while her fifth dam, the Djebel mare Damasi, was runner-up in the Prix de Pomone. Then there’s Danedream’s third dam Lady Berry, who won the 1973 Prix Royal-Oak to improve her record for the year to five wins from six starts. Lady Berry then took part in a very good edition of the Arc, finishing fifth of 27 behind Rheingold, Allez France, Hard To Beat and Card King.

However, it is another of Saana’s daughters which interests me here. This was Marcel Boussac’s famous mare Esmeralda, by Tourbillon. Esmeralda is a reminder of the days when top-class racehorses often shone over sprint distances at two before progressing to much longer trips as mature performers. Esmeralda’s juvenile season consisted of three wins from three races, starting with a record-breaking victory in the Prix Morny over five furlongs. She followed up with wins in the Prix La Rochette and Prix de la Foret. In taking the Poule d’Essai des Pouliches, Esmeralda improved her unbeaten run to five and she was considered unlucky to lose the Prix de Diane. That was the first of a string of defeats which Esmeralda suffered at three and four, but she recovered her form well enough towards the end of 1943 to finish second in the Arc, a race in which she also finished fourth in 1944 while acting as a pacemaker for Boussac’s Prix du Jockey-Club winner Ardan.

Esmeralda visited Boussac’s 1942 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe winner Djebel, even though they shared the same sire, Tourbillon

Esmeralda started her broodmare career in 1945. Perhaps because of the constraints of those difficult times, Esmeralda visited Boussac’s 1942 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe winner Djebel, even though Djebel shared the same sire, Tourbillon, as Esmeralda. It is worth adding that Tourbillon’s sire Ksar was inbred 3 x 2 to Omnium II, so the inbreeding to Tourbillon involved a horse who was himself closely inbred.

The mating produced a filly, Coronation, who wasted little time in displaying the family’s talent. Even though both her parents had performed well in the Arc, Coronation was fast enough to win the Queen Mary Stakes and Prix Robert Papin. Coronation also won the Poule d’Essai des Pouliches but didn’t look exceptional until she joined 27 others in the line-up for the newly revamped Arc in 1949. She quickened in dazzling style with 300 metres left to run and drew away to win by a distance officially estimated as four lengths but considered by many to be more like six. The parallels between Danedream and Coronation include the general astonishment which greeted the ease of their victories.
Let’s hope that the parallels end there. Coronation failed to win a top race at four, though she was a head second to Tantieme in the Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot. Worse was to follow. The incestuously-bred mare was barren in each of the ten years she was covered. Three of her matings were with Auriban, which would have produced foals inbred 3 x 3 x 3 to Tourbillon.

Inbreeding can work well
While 2 x 2 inbreeding appeared to scupper Coronation’s prospects as a broodmare, there are plenty of examples of successful broodmares which are inbred 2 x 3 or 3 x 2. Juddmonte enjoyed plenty of success with the sisters Viviana and Willstar, who had Nureyev as their sire and a mare by Nijinsky as their dam, to create 2 x 3 to Northern Dancer. Viviana produced Sightseek, a seven-time Grade 1 winner who earned nearly $2.5 million, and Tates Creek, a dual Grade 1 winner whose earnings fell just short of $1.5m. Willstar, for her part, produced the Prix de la Foret winner Etoile Montante.

Sadima, another mare inbred 2 x 3 to Northern Dancer, has excelled as a broodmare, producing two colts of international calibre in Youmzain and Creachadoir, plus a Group 3-winning daughter in Shreyas. Yet another example of a good broodmare inbred 2 x 3 to Northern Dancer was the French-bred Smala.

The daughter of Antheus produced Chichicastenango, who proved himself much superior to his sire Smadoun by winning the Prix Lupin and Grand Prix de Paris. Majestic Roi, winner of the 2007 Sun Chariot Stakes, is another out of a mare inbred 2 x 3 to Northern Dancer.

Pairing Sadler’s Wells with his three-parts-brother Nureyev has proved a popular means of inbreeding to Northern Dancer

Significantly, none of the mares mentioned here won anything better than a Listed race, so it is tempting to credit their close inbreeding with their success as broodmares. But before anyone concludes that close inbreeding is an easy route to success, they must remember that unwanted traits can be entrenched just as easily as virtues. There is the added concern in an industry with a shrinking gene pool that future prospects could become compromised for any mare closely inbred to a major influence.

Pairing Sadler’s Wells with his three-parts-brother Nureyev has proved a popular means of inbreeding to Northern Dancer. There are even three Group winners by sons of Sadler’s Wells out of daughters of Nureyev, including two by Galileo. That excellent Galileo colt Rip Van Winkle became the first Group 1 winner sired by a son of Sadler’s Wells from a grand-daughter of Nureyev and now he has been followed by High Chaparral’s much-travelled son Wigmore Hall. Having enjoyed little luck when fourth to Cape Blanco in the Arlington Million, the four-year-old gelding gained well-deserved compensation when he took the valuable Northern Dancer Turf Stakes at Woodbine.

Sadler’s Wells mares have also enjoyed plenty of success when mated with stallions with Nureyev blood, a prime example being Pivotal’s excellent daughter Immortal Verse.

Of course, many breeders have opted to combine Nureyev and Sadler’s Wells by means of Kingmambo and his sons, as we were reminded when Campanologist – one of six top-flight winners sired by Kingmambo from daughters of Sadler’s Wells – returned to form in the Preis von Europa.

Rock solid despite Japan stint

I have never been a great fan of Coolmore’s occasional policy of leasing stallions to Japan for a season. While it can provide an immediate solution for a stallion who might be suffering a temporary downturn in popularity, I have always felt that the loss of a crop is likely to create greater problems further down the line.

However, I have to admit that Rock Of Gibraltar seems to have suffered no harm from being leased to Japan for the 2007 northern hemisphere season.

The lease came about while Rock Of Gibraltar’s first crop of two-year-olds was racing in 2006. Following his remarkable exploits on the track, which featured seven consecutive Group 1 victories (the first two as a juvenile), Rock Of Gibraltar had been easily the highest-priced new stallion of 2003, at €90,000.

The announcement that Rock Of Gibraltar had been leased to Japan came on October 24. At that point he had been represented by only one Group winner, the Beresford Stakes winner Eagle Mountain, but he enjoyed his first Group 1 success as a sire within days of the announcement, when Mount Nelson took the Criterium International.

Even so, Rock Of Gibraltar ranked only fifth among the first-crop sires on the domestic table, which was less than everyone had hoped for.

It was a very different story by the time Rock Of Gibraltar returned to Ireland. He ranked as high as seventh on the 2007 leading sires’ list, thanks to Group successes by Eagle Mountain, Yellowstone, Kitty Matcham, Theann and Unilateral on the home front, with others by Utrecht and High Rock in France. There was also a strong support team of Listed winners in Europe and US stakes winners.

With his fee set at a more reasonable €35,000, there was plenty of demand for Rock Of Gibraltar’s services in 2008 and he covered 196 mares.

Consequently he has a strong team of 2011 juveniles, including Coral Wave (Group 3 C L Weld Park Stakes), Rockinante (Group 3 Autumn Stakes), Samitar (the Group 3 Albany Stakes winner who gained compensation for her narrow defeat in the Fillies’ Mile by winning a valuable sales race) and So Fast (winner of the Group 3 Prix La Rochette and a fast-finishing second in the Group 1 Prix Jean-Luc Lagardere).

In addition to these juveniles, Rock Of Gibraltar has demonstrated his versatility with a team of four-year-olds which include the Group 1 Golden Jubilee winner Society Rock and the Group 2 Prix de Royallieu heroine Sea Of Heartbreak. This crop also contains the disqualified 1,000 Guineas ‘winner’ Jacqueline Quest.

http://ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/10/mixed-blessings-of-close-inbreeding/



Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 12:42pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 12:43pm
Ran second in a stakes race in Ireland overnight.

Another Jim Bolger inmate.



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 3:23pm
 Can we learn something from this mares pedigree.  Maybe the female family line breeding is a balance to the closer inbreeding. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2014 at 5:26pm
 ...according to Leon Rasmussen.. "this mare is the Ancestral Mum in the evolution of the thoroughbred."
Can someone tell me what's going on here ?  looks more like a typo to me.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Off and racing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2014 at 2:12pm
Swynford from what I have read it's not a typo. If you read the first few pages in Floyd Oliver book breeding by design it actually discusses the mating the influence on the breed and also spanker mares breeder Edward Leeds has used other close breeding patterns in cream cheeks and Betty leeds, and early breeders had no inhibitions about inbreeding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2014 at 3:26pm
 Great answer OFF and racing, Leo Rasmussen called it the RF  factor but probably another typo, more a M F.ing factor to me.  Anyone who doesn't believe that inbreeding is not part of the industry needs to have look at that pedigree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2014 at 3:39pm
As far as Guelph is concerned suspect the hugely successful His Majesty/Graustark sibling cross and some other duplications further back might be at least as significant as the Danehill 2 x 3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2014 at 3:49pm
We need to remember that in the early days of the breed, the thoroughbred was an hybrid of different breeds.  Old Bald Peg for example was by an Arabian Stallion out of a Barb mare, and reportedly from TBHeritage.com, of "pure oriental breeding."  Inbreeding to this family is so very different to inbreeding to horses that have been in the stud book for 100's of years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GAJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2014 at 8:09pm
Geography may be a factor also in the good old days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2014 at 12:48pm
Bumping this as it may bear relevance to a recent, similar post by whitt0 titled 'how close is too close' in which he's referring to females 2 x 3 Smile
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whitt0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2014 at 12:57pm
Cheers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2014 at 2:07pm
I've just finished re-reading The Tesio Myth by Franco Varola . Tesio apparently did not divulge any of his mating principles in print or to the press .
Franco Varola who knew Tesio personally and said the only piece that he could find in his research on Tesio was an interview in the 1937 The Blood-Horse magazine . On that occasion Tesio said that only one close inbreeding could be attempted each season ,but should only be done with very sound high class individuals .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Off and racing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2014 at 8:18pm
Mr P did it ilude to tesio's definition of one close inbreeding? Ie how close?

The part about keeping his secrets to himself makes sense as to avoid the hassles of copy cats and also pushing up the fees on the bloodstock he brought and the stallion fees he sent his mares to, I think that the best breeders may keep there top principles pretty secretive.
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